Jesus as an opponent of the rich

[byu71]

How many truly needy people live within the boundaries or your ward or stake who have not received help, or at least the offer, from people around them?

Excellent question and there is an obvious answer. Also how often to you hear about hurruicanes and tornadoes and floods not only in the U.S. and elsewhere where the mormons are right there with physical and financial help.

Sadly the church is so good at helping out the needy it creates a case where also truly non needy also get helped.

[wuapinmon]

I'm particularly interested in this accusation. How did you reach this conclusion? How many truly needy people live within the boundaries or your ward or stake who have not received help, or at least the offer, from people around them? I may be the exception, as I live in a small community where everyone knows everyone, but nobody in our community starves or freezes to death because they lack the money to pay for food, shelter, and heat. Any time needs are known, there are always people who offer to help, not to mention the church and other churches who help with money from general coffers. Sure, some have no extra, but their basic needs are met. Christians may not ensure everyone in their community has a car and television, but I think they do a very good job of taking care of each other.

I think this way of life, as you describe it, can only exist in a small town. When you reach a certain number of people, or you start mixing cultures and races, this level of love-thy-neighbor is hard to come by. We are far more likely to give to those we know and to those who look like we do. Cities allow for such anonymity that it's very common to not know anyone in your neighborhood beyond those on either side of you. There's also not enough membership in civic/social organizations that can reach out instead of the government. My ward, for example, encompasses three counties. It's an hour drive each way for some people to come to church. If we tried to extend help to the people in the boundaries, we're talking about 125,000 people, give or take.

[Levin]

It's everything you dreamed it is an more. Apathiests FTW!

Never dreamed about it. To glide through life spiritually apathetic, greasing the wheels with the cold comforts of modernity (like insane attention to sports), is my definition of a nightmare. So many here remind me again and again why perspective is perhaps the most important attribute of all.

[byu71]

I think this way of life, as you describe it, can only exist in a small town. When you reach a certain number of people, or you start mixing cultures and races, this level of love-thy-neighbor is hard to come by. We are far more likely to give to those we know and to those who look like we do. Cities allow for such anonymity that it's very common to not know anyone in your neighborhood beyond those on either side of you. There's also not enough membership in civic/social organizations that can reach out instead of the government. My ward, for example, encompasses three counties. It's an hour drive each way for some people to come to church. If we tried to extend help to the people in the boundaries, we're talking about 125,000 people, give or take.

I may not understand how things work, but my thinking is the fast offerings I pay every month go into a general fund.

When I see the results of a Hurricane in Honduras and the church is sending food, clothing and other supplies I think I am helping. Am I wrong and my fast offerings don't go for those kind of things? Where does the church get the money to do that kind of service to strangers. At least they are strangers to me.

[wuapinmon]

I may not understand how things work, but my thinking is the fast offerings I pay every month go into a general fund.

When I see the results of a Hurricane in Honduras and the church is sending food, clothing and other supplies I think I am helping. Am I wrong and my fast offerings don't go for those kind of things? Where does the church get the money to do that kind of service to strangers. At least they are strangers to me.

Well, I don't think that cowboy was talking about fast offerings. I felt like he was saying that this was charity that was without the Church. Also, you live in Utah, where the church is massively involved in the social fabric of most communities, conveniently parceled up by geography into manageable areas where need can be assessed locally and resources allocated locally. Where I live, the Church could build a bishop's storehouse just to the feed the working poor. We have a no-questions-asked soup kitchen in town that I work in from time to time. The people who come in are not homeless. Many of them are on break from work, are elderly on fixed incomes, or have mental health issues, but are still able to live with family. They come in and get a meal. Our church doesn't like soup kitchens because we're supposed to be able to manage this at the ward level, which is why we always hear "The bishop is responsible for everyone living in the ward boundaries, LDS or not." That's a nice sentiment, but it's not accurate or even realistic.

If I know of someone who needs my help, I'll do what I can, but I also want to be able to go to Myrtle Beach with my kids and have a good time. I could give that money to someone else and help them along, take some pressure off, but the middle class has its own stresses and burdens that don't come from poverty, but feel just as real. I'm also selfish in many ways. My profession doesn't bring the lucre of other ones, so I can't just give it away now. But, I also feel that magnanimity of my father pulling on my heart, so I do more than I should for other people sometimes. I'm not letting my left hand know what my right hand does, but I think we all can admit to being altruistic to a fault sometimes.

What I do know is this, I remember what it felt like to be dirt poor when I was a little kid, and I remember the joy that I felt when people would come help, especially the two elders who showed up on our porch in 1981 in Rabun County, Georgia, during a bitter cold spell when my dad was working the bees in Florida and wouldn't be home for a month, and my mother had used up all our firewood. I was too young to use a go-devil, and my mom could only do a little at a time. These two men showed up from "Daddy's church" and split ALL of the logs that we had into firewood, stacked it up on the front porch by the door, and then I never saw them again. Those two elders, wherever they are, did what cowboy was talking about, and it was the epitome of Christian service; people from where we lived didn't help; two boys from Utah helped out a woman in poverty who needed help and couldn't afford to pay for it. Outside of the social structure of the church or a small town, I feel like the stuff cowboy's talking about wanes greatly amid a crush of people.

[byu71]

Well, I don't think that cowboy was talking about fast offerings.

I see, well when it comes to neighbors and the community I do make an effort to help sometimes people in need financially. I will admit I don't put myself out physically to help. Helping physically is probably more meaningful I will admit. However, if a neighbor needs moving and it is what I consider a real need due to their finances, I would rather pay someone else to do it.

Do I do enouogh? I would say not because I feel a bit of guilt when the subject comes up.

I would not consider myself rich based on others I know. I can say most of the rich I do know are very generous.

Of course they are republicans and help with their own money and not like the Biden democrats who are generous with taxpayers money.

[CardiacCoug]

I'm particularly interested in this accusation. How did you reach this conclusion? How many truly needy people live within the boundaries or your ward or stake who have not received help, or at least the offer, from people around them? I may be the exception, as I live in a small community where everyone knows everyone, but nobody in our community starves or freezes to death because they lack the money to pay for food, shelter, and heat. Any time needs are known, there are always people who offer to help, not to mention the church and other churches who help with money from general coffers. Sure, some have no extra, but their basic needs are met. Christians may not ensure everyone in their community has a car and television, but I think they do a very good job of taking care of each other.

Of course there are no needy people in my ward or stake. Where do you think I live, not in West Valley City?

I was thinking Jesus might hypothetically expect me to help people who can't afford to live in my stake but maybe that's crazy talk.

[Topper]

Of course there are no needy people in my ward or stake. Where do you think I live, not in West Valley City?

I was thinking Jesus might hypothetically expect me to help people who can't afford to live in my stake but maybe that's crazy talk.

You're supposed to help your neighbor. Thus, those who can't afford to be your neighbor don't deserve your help.

[San Juan Sun]

To glide through life spiritually apathetic, greasing the wheels with the cold comforts of modernity (like insane attention to sports), is my definition of a nightmare.

You're wrong on this one buddy. It's not a nightmare, it's pretty great.

[Goatnapper'96]

Outside of the social structure of the church or a small town, I feel like the stuff cowboy's talking about wanes greatly amid a crush of people.

Jesus loves rich rednecks! Can Cowboy give me an ehhhhhh-MEN, eh-men, AMEN!

Everybody now ehhhhhhh-me, eh-men, AMEN!

[CardiacCoug]

People who really believe can't win with you. In one breath, you say they are the source of the world's ills. In the other, you say they are not doing enough good in living Christ's teachings. Must be great not believing anything, which allows you to spend your life watching sports that have no meaning outside of the moment, and be conscience-free.

I don't think you understand. People who really believe either scare the hell out of me with the crazy/evil things that would make sense in that mindset or they impress the hell out of me with their awesomeness. But honestly I think there are very, very few true believers out there.

Voltaire said "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

For true believers bombing abortion clinics makes sense, flying airplanes into buildings makes sense, leaving England to go fight with ISIS makes sense.

To our ancestor true believers, killing and burying a bunch of peaceful settlers from Arkansas made sense, racism made sense, violence against gay people made sense. Today to true believers sexism makes total sense.

But in the interest of equal treatment toward the many, many positive effects of religion (in addition to the negatives above), I would respond to Voltaire by saying "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you do absurdly wonderful and amazing, selfless things."

I think many, many Mormons have more than enough resources to do something absurdly wonderful like adopt several kids with permanent disabilities like blindness, deafness, Down Syndrome, cerebral palsy, etc. and give those kids a life that they would never have in the third world country where they were unfortunate enough to be born. It seems like it would be commonplace for a true believing Mormon who makes $200K annually to give away $140K annually and live comfortably on the rest. Why don't you see more Mormons who do things like that?

I have to conclude that the explanation for why you don't see more people doing absurdly atrocious or absurdly wonderful things is that there just aren't that many true believers out there. They just don't have a true belief that their eternal destiny is determined by their actions during a few years on earth.

I'd say most people who consider themselves true believers believe in some type of "Christianity/Mormonism Lite": pay tithing, give $100/month as a fast offering (while paying $700/month for a nice car), help occasionally in the Elder's Quorum Moving Company, help the neighbors/ward members when there is a crisis, etc. And they believe that they and their families will be blessed here on earth and in eternity for these very small sacrifices.

But no way in hell would they volunteer to give their life for their religion in some type of war, no way in hell would they adopt a kid with Down's Syndrome or live on 25% of their large income. I honestly think those are the kinds of things that a true believer would do. SJBH.

And again, lest somebody think I'm being critical, I completely agree with that approach. Hedge your bets -- don't go all in with the demands of LDS or Christian abstract theology when these abstractions almost certainly have ZERO basis in reality. Help those around you when you can -- I honestly love helping the old people in my ward who have medical problems. But life is short and tomorrow we die. Don't put yourself out too much, make sure you put plenty of resources into living the good life. Helping in small ways is great. Then go blow $10K on that cruise or nice trip instead of giving it to somebody for whom it would really make a difference. I know that sounds sarcastic, but I'm being absolutely serious.

In conclusion, I think most Mormons and other so-called "believers" would like to live the life of a true Christian, but not nearly as much as they would like NOT to live the life of a true Christian, since they don't really believe it deep down anyway.

[Omaha 680]

Tell Jesus his avocados are terrible this year.

[wuapinmon]

Tell Jesus his avocados are terrible this year.

He said that he can't make it llover in California because the pinche mormones took all the moisture inland.

[Commando]

He said that he can't make it llover in California because the pinche mormones took all the moisture inland.

I know you jest, but there is an awesome book called Cadillac Desert that talks about western migration, the settlement of the American West, and its relationship with water (okay, not a riveting summary) that makes a lot of things make sense about America that I hadn't thought of before. Yes, Mormons get a shout out.

[cowboy]

I was thinking Jesus might hypothetically expect me to help people who can't afford to live in my stake but maybe that's crazy talk.

I started with stake, but transitioned to community. In general, I was talking about helping those we know are in need. As a rule, I think we do a pretty good job of that, though I'll admit that I think wuap is right that rural America is probably better at it than urban or even suburban communities. There's always room for improvement, but I don't think Christians are the greedy lot that you portrayed (perhaps unintentionally) in your original post.

That's not to imply that all of us give everything we have to charity. We tend to give where we know we'll make a difference. Generally speaking, we help those we know we can help, and when there is a crisis anywhere in the globe Americans are well-known for opening their checkbooks. After 9-11, the 2004 tsunami, Katrina, etc., charities received more donations than they knew what to do with. On the other hand, we tend not to donate as much to charities where we don't recognize the need or don't trust that the money will be put to good use. We could do better at that. Still, I don't think Jesus has a problem with us blowing a few grand on a vacation if we are also doing what we can to make sure that those within our sphere of influence have their basic needs met. Generally speaking, I think that's something Mormons and Christians in general do fairly well.