Jesus as an opponent of the rich

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I'm still waiting for someone to discuss the issue instead of taking pot shots at me.

Someone remind me how this board is different from cougarBOARD.

A formerly prominent member of this board recently mentioned to me that the board is dead. She might have been right. It's a damn shame that so many cougarboard types infiltrated what was once a vibrant community with plenty of smart discussion.

FTR I didn't take a potshot at you, in fact I took your argument and expounded on it giving you the chance to call Jesus illiterate.

[cowboy]

I'm still waiting for someone to discuss the issue instead of taking pot shots at me.

Someone remind me how this board is different from cougarBOARD.

A formerly prominent member of this board recently mentioned to me that the board is dead. She might have been right. It's a damn shame that so many cougarboard types infiltrated what was once a vibrant community with plenty of smart discussion.

No one is discussing it because you won the argument. Nothing else about Jesus' life was an outlier, so why would we expect his education level to be any different? No one can dispute your logic.

I can't believe this game is close. I never expected us to have a tough time with Virginia at home.

[Moliere]

Luke Ch 4:

16 ¶And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

[Katy Lied]

(Post game thoughts on this)

I think this is a very interesting premise, both the primary idea that Jesus was a political revolutionary, and the secondary one that Jesus was illiterate. Either thought doesn't really bother me in the sense that it would conflict with the "Jesus that I know," or the concept of Christ that has been stewing in my consciousness during my lifetime of thinking about him. Jesus was a true religious revolutionary, so why couldn't he be a political revolutionary as well? The only part of this notion that bothers me is that I believe that Jesus loved everyone, rich as well as the poor, although the record shows that he extended a lot of love and forbearance to the poor and there are less indications that he did this for the rich.

As far as tekton goes, I note that in my many years in the construction industry, I've observed that the modern general contractor usually arises from the ranks of the framers or finish carpenters. Once in a while it can be the grader, but in most cases, it is the wood guy. But for example, it will never be the roofer or the painter or the landscaper, or the foundation pourer. (Those of you in the industry can contribute your thoughts on this.) This is fascinating to me because what is it about framing or wood finishing that leads to entrepreneurism and the desire to take on the general contracting risk? What is it about framing that leads that tradesman to bid the entire job and sub out contracts for the other trades? Why don't we see other trades desiring to take on the role of general contractor, with its greater risk but much larger potential for profit? It's not % of value added because when I've worked for cookie cutter builders, we were able to get our framing costs down to 4% of the entire cost of the house. It's not technical expertise because plumbers and HVAC and fire sprinklers guys have much more technical trades. It's not where the trade lies in the construction chronology, because framing comes smack dab in the middle, with other trades before, after, and before-and-after.

Well back in the day, the general contractor was the framer or the stone mason, depending upon the construction material. Of course there were no plumbers and HVAC guys, but they still had roofers and painters and water proofers (pitch daubers) and finish trades. You probably see where I am going with this. Wouldnt tektons need to be relatively sophisticated in negotiations and bidding and trade and calculation of risk/reward in order to coordinate even small projects such as a family house? It's not like tektons carved toy boats for the market-- they'd need to oversee and coordinate large projects as well. There were plenty of large public works projects in the day, as well as smaller projects like huts.

[Katy Lied]

Another thought: If you come from a belief that Jesus is the son of God, why wouldn't you expect him to beat the odds and be literate? If you believe that he is not the son of God, why wouldn't you scoff at the idea that he was an anomaly with respect to literacy? I think positions on this issue reveal more about the person on the stump than they uncover about what we know about Jesus Christ.

[ERCougar]

So KL...where exactly would he have gotten this education? The huge difference between today and then would be access.

Before anyone answers "God", yes, of course all of this can be a matter of faith. Yes, Jesus could have been literate (why did he never write anything down?) and the BOM could be historical. Probably not, but maybe. I don't think either is very essential to a faith in God or Mormonism.

The biblical claim that Jesus was killed for blasphemy at the behest of the Jewish leadership, with Rome as a sort of pawn, seems particularly absurd. He was killed for sedition, which is the only thing Rome cared about. Another claim that isn't particularly germane to faith in Christ.

[All-American]

Yes, Jesus could have been literate (why did he never write anything down?)

John 8:6

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Boom.

[ERCougar]

Another thought: If you come from a belief that Jesus is the son of God, why wouldn't you expect him to beat the odds and be literate? If you believe that he is not the son of God, why wouldn't you scoff at the idea that he was an anomaly with respect to literacy? I think positions on this issue reveal more about the person on the stump than they uncover about what we know about Jesus Christ.

Of course, it says more about the person making the argument. But I don't think an acceptance of what likely happened implies that one has no faith in Christ's divinity. It may imply a different view of what that means.

Zealot was the first book I read that really focused on the historical Jesus. It's very readable and a nice summary of the current scholarship without a lot of controversial stuff in there. Since then, I've read some more and it's been a fascinating study into both Jesus and his contemporaries (some of the most interesting parts of Zealot are the stuff having to do with James, brother of Jesus, and Peter). It's admittedly required a bit of a reframing, but nothing absolutely inconsistent with Mormonism (Catholics would have a more difficult pill to swallow). "The Heart of Christianity" represents a nice way of pulling off this reframing.

[ERCougar]

John 8:6

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

Boom.

[emoji4]

[Katy Lied]

He could have been tracing a design, or counting out marks in the dirt.

Maybe he deliberately chose not to leave any written record.

I'm more interested in why illiteracy is such a stigma to us. As if someone could not have led a major movement unless they were literate. We recoil because literacy is such a basic requirement of civilization to us today.

If Jesus was a woodworker, would he have been apprenticed to someone for a long time, in order to learn his trade? Wouldn't they have taught him basic math as well as rudimentary reading skills, at least blueprints if not high literature. Maybe there was a whole range of skill involved in the trade on carpentry, from carvers of toy boats to general contractors. It would be easy to take the most basic definition on the spectrum and claim that Jesus was a member of that strata...

[ERCougar]

He could have been tracing a design, or counting out marks in the dirt.

Maybe he deliberately chose not to leave any written record.

I'm more interested in why illiteracy is such a stigma to us. As if someone could not have led a major movement unless they were literate. We recoil because literacy is such a basic requirement of civilization to us today.

If Jesus was a woodworker, would he have been apprenticed to someone for a long time, in order to learn his trade? Wouldn't they have taught him basic math as well as rudimentary reading skills, at least blueprints if not high literature. Maybe there was a whole range of skill involved in the trade on carpentry, from carvers of toy boats to general contractors. It would be easy to take the most basic definition on the spectrum and claim that Jesus was a member of that strata...

Maybe he didn't write anything because in the long run, an accurate recording of what the Son of God taught isn't all that important?

As far as stigma goes, I'm not the one resisting the idea that he was probably illiterate.

[All-American]

(Post game thoughts on this)

I think this is a very interesting premise, both the primary idea that Jesus was a political revolutionary, and the secondary one that Jesus was illiterate. Either thought doesn't really bother me in the sense that it would conflict with the "Jesus that I know," or the concept of Christ that has been stewing in my consciousness during my lifetime of thinking about him. Jesus was a true religious revolutionary, so why couldn't he be a political revolutionary as well? The only part of this notion that bothers me is that I believe that Jesus loved everyone, rich as well as the poor, although the record shows that he extended a lot of love and forbearance to the poor and there are less indications that he did this for the rich.

As far as tekton goes, I note that in my many years in the construction industry, I've observed that the modern general contractor usually arises from the ranks of the framers or finish carpenters. Once in a while it can be the grader, but in most cases, it is the wood guy. But for example, it will never be the roofer or the painter or the landscaper, or the foundation pourer. (Those of you in the industry can contribute your thoughts on this.) This is fascinating to me because what is it about framing or wood finishing that leads to entrepreneurism and the desire to take on the general contracting risk? What is it about framing that leads that tradesman to bid the entire job and sub out contracts for the other trades? Why don't we see other trades desiring to take on the role of general contractor, with its greater risk but much larger potential for profit? It's not % of value added because when I've worked for cookie cutter builders, we were able to get our framing costs down to 4% of the entire cost of the house. It's not technical expertise because plumbers and HVAC and fire sprinklers guys have much more technical trades. It's not where the trade lies in the construction chronology, because framing comes smack dab in the middle, with other trades before, after, and before-and-after.

Well back in the day, the general contractor was the framer or the stone mason, depending upon the construction material. Of course there were no plumbers and HVAC guys, but they still had roofers and painters and water proofers (pitch daubers) and finish trades. You probably see where I am going with this. Wouldnt tektons need to be relatively sophisticated in negotiations and bidding and trade and calculation of risk/reward in order to coordinate even small projects such as a family house? It's not like tektons carved toy boats for the market-- they'd need to oversee and coordinate large projects as well. There were plenty of large public works projects in the day, as well as smaller projects like huts.

I find both the premise that Jesus was an opponent of the rich and the sub premise that he was illiterate to be very uninteresting. The second, because it is so flawed, and the first, because it is so obviously true as to be pretty unremarkable.

Jesus was opposed to the rich? Well, duh. Anybody who gives the gospels even a cursory glance can tell that he criticized those who pursued wealth at the expense of matters of higher importance, particularly taking care of the poor. At worst, wealth corrupts-- with Judas, the apostle in charge of the group's purse and betrayed the Savior for a few pieces of silver, being the chief example-- and at best, wealth distracts-- see, e.g., the rich young man who kept all other commandments, but who went away sorrowing when the Savior told him to sell all that he had and give to the poor. His life's message was that there were treasures in heaven to be had for those willing to look beyond the prospect of treasures on earth. So when somebody comes by and announces that Jesus had issues with the wealthy, I'm not sure why I'm supposed to be impressed.

As for the second argument, it is kind of dumb. The closest thing we have to primary sources on the life of Christ depicts him reading, quoting scripture, using scriptures in his own sermons, and gaining a following of "mathetoi" (the greek word for "students") calling him "rabbi" and "didaskalos" (teacher). If you think it remarkable that a teknon could read, it would have been unthinkable for a theologian, much less one to gain a following of any note, to have been illiterate.

But all of the above-cited evidence, one might argue, comes from the gospels, which, as we know, are highly flawed as historical documents. True enough, but that doesn't mean we get to be selective about what points the gospels support and which ones they don't. Where the same source that calls Jesus a teknon depict him reading, any suspicion underlying the one point must also underly the other. Besides, even an amateur historian knows better than to disregard the best sources available just because they are imperfect. Roman historians quote Livy, Polybius, Suetonius, and Appian all the time, even though they described events that occurred well before their lifetimes. After acknowledging the imperfect sources, historians do the best they can with what they've got. Here, the gospels are, for all of their flaws as historical artifacts, the best we've got when it comes to describing Jesus as a historical figure, and they support the rather unremarkable proposition that a teacher of religion could actually read the scriptures.

[All-American]

He could have been tracing a design, or counting out marks in the dirt.

Maybe, but then, how do you account for THIS:

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 31:18.

Boom.

[ERCougar]

Wait a second...it would be impossible for a man to gain a following at the time of Christ without being literate? Is that what you're saying? Was John the Baptist also literate?

I think the evidence of proof texting is pretty abundant, no? The scriptures Jesus quotes are very different in John vs Mark.

[SoonerCoug]

Another thought: If you come from a belief that Jesus is the son of God, why wouldn't you expect him to beat the odds and be literate? If you believe that he is not the son of God, why wouldn't you scoff at the idea that he was an anomaly with respect to literacy? I think positions on this issue reveal more about the person on the stump than they uncover about what we know about Jesus Christ.

My understanding is that "son of God" was used frequently in reference to many people of that time.


"Son of man" is the more interesting phrase to me.