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  • Sustaining the Prophets

    I just read through this article from our favorite blog Mormon Women Stand. Couple interesting paragraphs:

    With this negative “whispering campaign”, the adversary sets out to gradually—but purposefully—sow seeds of doubt or criticism about individual members of The First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He might:

    - Offer convincing, subtle alternatives such as groups, symposiums or blogs so that members’ attention is diverted to them instead of the words of living prophets;
    - Encourage members of the church to begin to view prophets and apostles as fairly regular, kind, older gentlemen whose words are nice-—but not always up to speed with social trends. Get them to pick and choose what to follow from their words.
    - Point the potential for fallibility. Suggest an “old-age release” or the possibility that newer or younger Church leaders might bring in more liberal ideologies. Hope that as a result, LDS doctrine will evolve to be more in sync with current social trends;
    - Suggest that there are power struggles, discord, and unity issues among the Brethren;
    - Finally, weaken the messenger so that the message becomes weak (or at least taken with a grain of salt) and thus lessen the authority and divinity of the calling of the holy apostleship.
    Pretty much all of us are going to hell.

    Is it wrong to speak ill or critically of church leaders or of a talk they give in General Conference? Yes. How serious is speaking and writing against the leaders of the Church? Very serious. Recognizing what we know about the roles of prophets and apostles (and who they represent), criticizing these special witnesses of Jesus Christ is ultimately a matter of undermining the Savior. Consider what Elder Dallin H. Oaks said about this:

    I have given the following counsel to Church members—those who have committed themselves by upraised hands to sustain their church leaders:

    Criticism is particularly objectionable when it is directed toward Church authorities, general or local. Jude condemns those who ‘speak evil of dignities.’ (Jude 1:8.) Evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed is in a class by itself. It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God. It does not matter that the criticism is true. … When we say anything bad about the leaders of the Church, whether true or false, we tend to impair their influence and their usefulness and are thus working against the Lord and His cause.[xiii]
    Again, we are all going to hell.

    Thankfully the author is female and therefore has no right to receive revelation for me. That has to come through my stake president and/or someone else up that chain (of which chain there are no women).

    On a serious note, I wonder at what point would I no longer sustain the prophet. I'm already for equal rights in marriage, however Pres. Monson himself has made it clear that political differences in that realm are fine. I think two earrings in one ear is fine and thus mock (in a way) GBH for pulling that commandment over us. If the prophet came ot me and told me to take another wife I'm pretty sure I'd tell him no.

    At what point would you no longer sustain the prophet?
    "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

  • #2
    Not really related, but I pretty much tune anyone out who uses the term "the adversary".
    At least the Big Ten went after a big-time addition in Nebraska; the Pac-10 wanted a game so badly, it added Utah
    -Berry Trammel, 12/3/10

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ERCougar View Post
      Not really related, but I pretty much tune anyone out who uses the term "the adversary".
      The real problem with articles such as this is that they assume full belief in prophets, apostles, etc. Fine if that's what you have, of course, but I'm increasingly of the opinion that most Mormons are cafeteria types when it comes down to it. Not all, but a majority. And a definite majority of those who are having faith struggles (I HATE that term, but it's far less pejorative than Shaken Faith Syndrome) are questioning that full belief.

      Being out as I am now, the concept of never questioning leaders seems so creepy to me, regardless of who they represent. But when I was in, at least years ago, I fully subscribed to that philosophy.

      As to "the adversary," if he's responsible for half the stuff attributable to him I wonder if people aren't worshiping the less powerful deity.
      Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Moliere View Post
        I just read through this article from our favorite blog Mormon Women Stand. Couple interesting paragraphs:



        Pretty much all of us are going to hell.



        Again, we are all going to hell.

        Thankfully the author is female and therefore has no right to receive revelation for me. That has to come through my stake president and/or someone else up that chain (of which chain there are no women).

        On a serious note, I wonder at what point would I no longer sustain the prophet. I'm already for equal rights in marriage, however Pres. Monson himself has made it clear that political differences in that realm are fine. I think two earrings in one ear is fine and thus mock (in a way) GBH for pulling that commandment over us. If the prophet came ot me and told me to take another wife I'm pretty sure I'd tell him no.

        At what point would you no longer sustain the prophet?
        Wait...did a prophet write this? Because if it wasn't a prophet, I'm not sure I can read it and give it any level of credibility.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Moliere View Post
          I just read through this article from our favorite blog Mormon Women Stand. Couple interesting paragraphs:



          Pretty much all of us are going to hell.

          It is one thing to depreciate a person who exercises corporate power or even government power. It is quite another thing to criticize or depreciate a person for the performance of an office to which he or she has been called of God.
          Again, we are all going to hell.

          Thankfully the author is female and therefore has no right to receive revelation for me. That has to come through my stake president and/or someone else up that chain (of which chain there are no women).

          On a serious note, I wonder at what point would I no longer sustain the prophet. I'm already for equal rights in marriage, however Pres. Monson himself has made it clear that political differences in that realm are fine. I think two earrings in one ear is fine and thus mock (in a way) GBH for pulling that commandment over us. If the prophet came ot me and told me to take another wife I'm pretty sure I'd tell him no.

          At what point would you no longer sustain the prophet?
          Any idea what the useful, depreciable life is for a person who's been called of God? Is straight-line required or can we use an accelerated method? Salvage value?
          "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
          - Goatnapper'96

          Comment


          • #6
            Some great quotes from Apostle Hugh B. Brown, "We should be in the forefront of learning in all fields, for revelation does not come only through the prophet of God nor only directly from heaven in visions or dreams. Revelation may come in the laboratory, out of the test tube, out of the thinking mind and the inquiring soul, out of search and research and prayer and inspiration. We must be unafraid to contend for what we are thinking and to combat error with truth in this divided and imperiled world, and we must do it with the unfaltering faith that God is still in his heaven even though all is not well with the world."

            "We should be dauntless in our pursuit of truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity. No one would have us become mere tape recorders of other people's thoughts. We should be modest and teachable and seek to know the truth by study and faith. There have been times when progress was halted by thought control."

            "Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail. Knowledge is the most complete and dependable when all points of view are heard."

            I hope that you will develop the questing spirit. Be unafraid of new ideas for they are the stepping stones of progress. You will of course respect the opinions of others but be unafraid to dissent if you are informed.

            ?Now I have mentioned freedom to express your thoughts, but I caution you that ? in that search you will need at least three virtues; courage, zest, and modesty. The ancients put that thought in the form of a prayer. They said, ?From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all truth O God of truth deliver us ?.

            “The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything....
            “And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile...”

            Now contrast Apostle Dallin Oaks, "IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."

            Which apostle sounds like a disciple of Christ and which sounds like a Pharisee? Yea, Elder Oak's, I'm criticizing!

            Comment


            • #7
              Sustaining the prophet is hard to turn on and off.

              - Encourage members of the church to begin to view prophets and apostles as fairly regular, kind, older gentlemen whose words are nice-—but not always up to speed with social trends. Get them to pick and choose what to follow from their words.
              - Point the potential for fallibility.
              - Finally, weaken the messenger so that the message becomes weak (or at least taken with a grain of salt) and thus lessen the authority and divinity of the calling of the holy apostleship.
              This is exactly what good LDS apologists tell us to do when faced with the difficult historical issues. It's hard to buy into that logic in order to make sense of problems in the church's past, but then dump that logic when we move from the past to current day and try to accept the prophets and apostles as infallible.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Bruiserstone View Post
                Some great quotes from Apostle Hugh B. Brown, "We should be in the forefront of learning in all fields, for revelation does not come only through the prophet of God nor only directly from heaven in visions or dreams. Revelation may come in the laboratory, out of the test tube, out of the thinking mind and the inquiring soul, out of search and research and prayer and inspiration. We must be unafraid to contend for what we are thinking and to combat error with truth in this divided and imperiled world, and we must do it with the unfaltering faith that God is still in his heaven even though all is not well with the world."

                "We should be dauntless in our pursuit of truth and resist all demands for unthinking conformity. No one would have us become mere tape recorders of other people's thoughts. We should be modest and teachable and seek to know the truth by study and faith. There have been times when progress was halted by thought control."

                "Tolerance and truth demand that all be heard and that competing ideas be tested against each other so that the best, which might not always be our own, can prevail. Knowledge is the most complete and dependable when all points of view are heard."

                I hope that you will develop the questing spirit. Be unafraid of new ideas for they are the stepping stones of progress. You will of course respect the opinions of others but be unafraid to dissent if you are informed.

                ?Now I have mentioned freedom to express your thoughts, but I caution you that ? in that search you will need at least three virtues; courage, zest, and modesty. The ancients put that thought in the form of a prayer. They said, ?From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth, from the laziness that is content with half truth, from the arrogance that thinks it has all truth O God of truth deliver us ?.

                “The church is not so much concerned with whether the thoughts of its members are orthodox or heterodox as it is that they shall have thoughts. One may memorize much without learning anything....
                “And while all members should respect, support, and heed the teachings of the authorities of the church, no one should accept a statement and base his or her testimony upon it, no matter who makes it, until he or she has, under mature examination, found it to be true and worthwhile...”

                Now contrast Apostle Dallin Oaks, "IT'S WRONG TO CRITICIZE LEADERS OF THE CHURCH, EVEN IF THE CRITICISM IS TRUE."

                Which apostle sounds like a disciple of Christ and which sounds like a Pharisee? Yea, Elder Oak's, I'm criticizing!
                Could please source those Elder Brown quotes for us? I'd like to use them in an upcoming talk.
                "Wuap's "problem" is that he is smart & principled & committed to a moral course of action. His actions are supposed to reflect his ethical code.
                The rest of us rarely bother to think about our actions." --Solon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by wuapinmon View Post
                  Could please source those Elder Brown quotes for us? I'd like to use them in an upcoming talk.
                  Wasn't HBB the only member of the FP who was not invited into the next FP when a new prophet was sustained. IIRC, J Fielding Smith and Harold. B Lee were not fond of Brown.
                  Jesus wants me for a sunbeam.

                  "Cog dis is a bitch." -James Patterson

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
                    Wasn't HBB the only member of the FP who was not invited into the next FP when a new prophet was sustained. IIRC, J Fielding Smith and Harold. B Lee were not fond of Brown.
                    Correct. It isn't all that surprising given the contrast between his approach and that of Joseph Fielding Smith.

                    If Monson died tomorrow, do you think Packer would keep Uchdorf? I do not.
                    Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pheidippides View Post
                      Correct. It isn't all that surprising given the contrast between his approach and that of Joseph Fielding Smith.

                      If Monson died tomorrow, do you think Packer would keep Uchdorf? I do not.
                      I would anticipate a Dallin H. Oaks / M. Russel Ballard hardliner trifecta in that case.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Green Monstah View Post
                        Wasn't HBB the only member of the FP who was not invited into the next FP when a new prophet was sustained. IIRC, J Fielding Smith and Harold. B Lee were not fond of Brown.
                        Rumor has it that HBB was invited into an interview with JFS, in which JFS told HBB that he couldn't have the position, and walked out the door. But HBB saw a file with his name on it, with bold letters "This man is a Progressive." So HBB went and burnt down JFS's currant bushes in protest.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by LVAllen View Post
                          Rumor has it that HBB was invited into an interview with JFS, in which JFS told HBB that he couldn't have the position, and walked out the door. But HBB saw a file with his name on it, with bold letters "This man is a Progressive." So HBB went and burnt down JFS's currant bushes in protest.
                          Heh
                          "What are you prepared to do?" - Jimmy Malone

                          "What choice?" - Abe Petrovsky

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by LVAllen View Post
                            I would anticipate a Dallin H. Oaks / M. Russel Ballard hardliner trifecta in that case.
                            Ugh, maybe they could also make former Pope Benedict an honorary member since he has some free time. Obviously mostly a ceremonial title, but shows we can be inclusive too.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by LVAllen View Post
                              I would anticipate a Dallin H. Oaks / M. Russel Ballard hardliner trifecta in that case.
                              Nope. Bednar and Oaks. Give the young hardliner some cred and grooming.
                              Awesomeness now has a name. Let me introduce myself.

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