The June 1

[All-American]

The June 2

Are you saying that the timing is being forced, whether or not it's convenient for her, and therefore it's likely it is pushed from the top? If that's the case, I agree. I don't think, however, that this particular timing is because she is inconvenienced by it.

Schill.

[Maximus]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4392[/ATTACH]

1. how do you define apostasy?

2. Are these 2 members publicly teaching false doctrine?

[Uncle Ted]

1. how do you define apostasy?

Apparently that is up to the local church court to define.

2. Are these 2 members publicly teaching false doctrine?

I don't know but it may depend on the local definition and/or opinion. According to Kelly she says no:

"I think the charge of apostasy is wholly unfounded," she said. "I've never said anything against the leaders of the church. I've never said anything negative about any of the Lord's anointed. I've never taught any doctrines, let alone false doctrines. The only sins I'm guilty of is telling the truth and living authentically and having sincere questions. If those are apostasy, I'm guilty, but I don't view those to be apostate acts."

It is a little more questionable with Dehlin, however:

Dehlin runs a website called Mormon Stories. He said local church leaders have had multiple hearings with him but that he has been cleared each time. Last year after a full year of weekly meetings with his stake president, he said he was found worthy to exercise his priesthood and baptize his son.


Since then, his ward in Logan got a new bishop and stake president, and he has updated his online bio.


"I consider myself to be an unorthodox, unorthoprax Mormon," he wrote, in part. "I believe in many of the central, non-distinctive moral teachings within Mormonism ... but either have serious doubts about, or no longer believe many of the fundamental LDS church truth claims..."


"I will not be resigning my membership," Dehlin said. "I love the church too much to resign from it. My biggest hope is that this goes away."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/8...line.html?pg=2

I personally don't consider studying and teaching the history of the church as apostasy. Of course, the local leadership who is apparently completely acting on their own may have a different opinion.

[Maximus]

Apparently that is up to the local church court to define.

so you dont want to answer?

I don't know but it may depend on the local definition and/or opinion. According to Kelly she says no:

the website says the women need the priesthood to be equal, which is contrary to church doctrine.

It is a little more questionable with Dehlin, howeve

Are you claiming he has never taught something contrary to church doctrine?

[Uncle Ted]

so you dont want to answer?

My answer is it varies on the local leadership definition and opinion. I have read about a wide range of examples that people got excommunicated for. It varies too much to say there is a black and white definition.

the website says the women need the priesthood to be equal, which is contrary to church doctrine.

If you dive deep into the doctrine women do already have the priesthood (as part of their endowment). Women perform temple ordinances and play a very active role when it comes to things like second anointings from what I understand. There is a lot of documented history that women performed or helped perform priesthood blessings as late as 1979. As for what is really church doctrine that seems to change as it did with the blacks and the priesthood. At first blacks were being ordained and then it stopped. Of course, all the doctrine for the justification for the priesthood ban has since been rejected and the official response for why there was a priesthood ban is now "we don't know". It seems the only thing constant about the doctrine of who can get the priesthood (and practice whatever) is that it is always changing.

Are you claiming he has never taught something contrary to church doctrine?

I don't really follow him but from what I have read he would more likely be excommunicated out of the two especially given the strong local opinions of the area he is in.

[Northwestcoug]

About the question whether or not this was coordinated. I saw this interesting Des News article about the aftermath of the September 6th group on Facebook:

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/312...m.facebook.com

First of all, Deseret News used to actually report? Second, Elder Oaks has been speaking out of both sides of his mouth for a while:

A former Utah Supreme Court justice and the church's expert on disciplinary procedures, Elder Oaks said the disciplinary decisions ranging from probation to excommunication are meted out by bishops and stake presidents.

He explained that local leaders are informed by church headquarters about members who may possibly be violating church standards. The church's Strengthening the Members Committee pores over newspapers and other publications and identifies members accused of crimes, preaching false doctrine, criticizing leadership or other problems. That information is forwarded on to the person's bishop or stake president, who is charged with helping them overcome problems and stay active in the church.

"It is a way of keeping busy bishops informed," he said. "But it is up to the bishop to handle it. Bishops don't report back."

As if bishops and stake presidents wouldn't feel pressured to act if they received information from the strengthening the members committee. From all accounts, this committee still exists. And it just so happens that two of the most visible church critics on Facebook received their court of love summons within a day of each other. Yeah, this was a coincidence.

To be clear, both Kelly and Dehlin certainly have qualified to be labeled 'apostate' by the church's definition, again and again. They shouldn't be surprised. But it certainly sends a message to active members who sympathize with their causes.

[SoonerCoug]

About the question whether or not this was coordinated. I saw this interesting Des News article about the aftermath of the September 6th group on Facebook:

http://m.deseretnews.com/article/312...m.facebook.com

First of all, Deseret News used to actually report? Second, Elder Oaks has been speaking out of both sides of his mouth for a while:



As if bishops and stake presidents wouldn't feel pressured to act if they received information from the strengthening the members committee. From all accounts, this committee still exists. And it just so happens that two of the most visible church critics on Facebook received their court of love summons within a day of each other. Yeah, this was a coincidence.

To be clear, both Kelly and Dehlin certainly have qualified to be labeled 'apostate' by the church's definition, again and again. They shouldn't be surprised. But it certainly sends a message to active members who sympathize with their causes.

This will just make the criticism louder and more publicized.

I am pretty sure that President Hinckley wouldn't have allowed this to happen.

That said, the apostles are totally insulated from the real world. They are surrounded by yes men (and maybe a few yes women as well). I think this clouds their decision making.

This is a horrible miscalculation.

[Sullyute]

I am pretty sure that President Hinckley wouldn't have allowed this to happen.

I have heard this a couple times on different blogs. I don't understand why people think this as he was effectively incharge when the September 6 went down. So are you saying that he would have learned his lesson from a PR perspective and wouldn't repeat it, or that he was more inclusive? I can believe the former but the latter doesn't seem to add up with his actions (or inaction) in the past.

[SoonerCoug]

I have heard this a couple times on different blogs. I don't understand why people think this as he was effectively incharge when the September 6 went down. So are you saying that he would have learned his lesson from a PR perspective and wouldn't repeat it, or that he was more inclusive? I can believe the former but the latter doesn't seem to add up with his actions (or inaction) in the past.

Learned his lesson.

President Hinckley was more backward than people think.

When I was named a GB Hinckley scholar, his sincere comment to our group was that he was shocked / disappointed that there were no Hinckley scholars from Salt Lake. (This was in response to BYU officials boasting about the diverse nature of our group including two international scholars.)

[Blueintheface]

Learned his lesson.

President Hinckley was more backward than people think.

When I was named a GB Hinckley scholar, his sincere comment to our group was that he was shocked / disappointed that there were no Hinckley scholars from Salt Lake. (This was in response to BYU officials boasting about the diverse nature of our group including two international scholars.)

I'm not sure what to make of your comment nor how that makes him more backward than people think.

[Moliere]

Learned his lesson.

President Hinckley was more backward than people think.

When I was named a GB Hinckley scholar, his sincere comment to our group was that he was shocked / disappointed that there were no Hinckley scholars from Salt Lake. (This was in response to BYU officials boasting about the diverse nature of our group including two international scholars.)

This deserves a humblebrag gold medal

[YOhio]

Learned his lesson.

President Hinckley was more backward than people think.

When I was named a GB Hinckley scholar, his sincere comment to our group was that he was shocked / disappointed that there were no Hinckley scholars from Salt Lake. (This was in response to BYU officials boasting about the diverse nature of our group including two international scholars.)

No way! He really said that?

[creekster]

This deserves a humblebrag gold medal

I am struggling to find the humble in the brag, although I guess with my low California IQ that sort of subtlety probably eludes me.

[Blueintheface]

No way! He really said that?

Backward. More than you'd think.

[Moliere]

I am struggling to find the humble in the brag, although I guess with my low California IQ that sort of subtlety probably eludes me.

Wow, I had no idea Sooner was good enough to do his humblebrags in a Markan parable model. Those who have ears to hear....