The June 1

[Jeff Lebowski]

Those who like Hampton Sides have to read his book Ghost Soldiers. Amazing book about the Philippines in WWII.

Yes indeed. And Blood and Thunder is also great.

[CardiacCoug]

Yes indeed. And Blood and Thunder is also great.

I'll have to check that one out.

So much good stuff to read out there, so little time.

[RC Vikings]

On FB Dehlin posts about his attendance at church today.

I'm not totally sure why, but I felt like it was important to attend church today, so we did (as a family). The service was normal. I still felt "the spirit" or very warm feelings when singing the hymns. But the outpouring of love expressed afterwards was truly heart warming. One member slipped me a note *during the opening prayer* saying that he hoped that they don't go through with a council. One brother shook my hand, and then shook his fist at me with a huge smile in a "you can do it!" sort of way. One sweet sister insisted on hugging both myself and Margi. She said, "Physical touch is very important in moments like this." Several members went out of their way to smile, or to express explicit support for our family.

Margi and I were hesitant to attend, but afterwards were so glad that we did. In spite of my doubts about some of our teachings, and concerns about LDS church history -- I have always loved the saints. And I still do.

[myboynoah]

On FB Dehlin posts about his attendance at church today.

wolf_in_sheeps_cloth.jpg

[Moliere]

This time the sheep are devouring the wolves

I'll admit that the threat of excommunication, while a big deal, isn't bothering me nearly as much as the responses to this whole thing from the faithful members. I see a lot of people saying things like "the church will never give in to political pressure" or "these people need to read the scriptures and follow the prophets and then repent". Sometimes I wish I wasn't such a wuss when it came to non-anonymous boards because anyone with an inkling of church history knowledge or of the scriptures knows how ridiculous those statements sound.

[Pheidippides]

This time the sheep are devouring the wolves

I'll admit that the threat of excommunication, while a big deal, isn't bothering me nearly as much as the responses to this whole thing from the faithful members. I see a lot of people saying things like "the church will never give in to political pressure" or "these people need to read the scriptures and follow the prophets and then repent". Sometimes I wish I wasn't such a wuss when it came to non-anonymous boards because anyone with an inkling of church history knowledge or of the scriptures knows how ridiculous those statements sound.

Don't waste your time. You can't educate directly in that manner.

I'm honestly a bit surprised at how much this has affected me. In theory I shouldn't care. I haven't been an open supporter of OW (although I do cheer them on), and I haven't listened to a Mormon Stories podcast in a while (well, up until the Sandra Tanner interviews; I find her fascinating). And yet I was pretty mad last Thursday. Started drafting my own resignation letter even, although that's not the path I'm gong to take.

SHW doesn't care - she looks at it with a bit of bemusement, and maybe it's reinforced her decision to leave, but that's it.

[All-American]

I submit the following for consideration.

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/5...rdain.html.csp

I'm on board with maybe 80% of this.

[Moliere]

Don't waste your time. You can't educate directly in that manner.

I'm honestly a bit surprised at how much this has affected me. In theory I shouldn't care. I haven't been an open supporter of OW (although I do cheer them on), and I haven't listened to a Mormon Stories podcast in a while (well, up until the Sandra Tanner interviews; I find her fascinating). And yet I was pretty mad last Thursday. Started drafting my own resignation letter even, although that's not the path I'm gong to take.

SHW doesn't care - she looks at it with a bit of bemusement, and maybe it's reinforced her decision to leave, but that's it.

The most interesting thing I've read on this subject was a short response to something on FB. I can't remember who posted it, but it was a synopsis of a brief discussion between father and daughter, which was posted by the daughter. Basically, the daughter described her support (not affiliation) with the idea behind OW and how important it is to have a voice for women in the church. The father called it some kind of apostasy to which the daughter responded with the example of Deborah and how she was a prophetess. The father mentioned that being a prophetess doesn't mean she had the priesthood (see Bible Dictionary definition). She then said that she was not only a prophetess, but also acted in the name of God in leading her people and then the daughter asked how she could be those things without having the priesthood, which stumped her father and made him actually say he'd never considered that before. The father (who is a seventy) came away from that discussion with the ability to consider a different viewpoint.

The church is ran by old men, and even though they are inspired they are clearly biased towards their own experiences. In fact, the biggest failing in this church is that we interpret other members' actions and words through our own experiences.

[Green Monstah]

I submit the following for consideration.

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/5...rdain.html.csp

I'm on board with maybe 80% of this.

I think there's an inherent flaw in her op-ed when applied to the reality of change in the Church (the new "inspired" stance often directly conflicts with former "inspired" stance, creating absurdities and undermining the concept of continuing revelation).

While I understand those who don't like OW's tactics, Mrs. Woolley's letter to the editor reminded me of the following words from the Letter from Birmingham Jail:

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

Mrs. Woolley is probably correct. Change within the church will not be effected through OW's demonstrations, but I don't fault these women for losing patience and resorting to measures deemed inappropriate by the majority of active Mormons.

[ERCougar]

Don't waste your time. You can't educate directly in that manner.

I'm honestly a bit surprised at how much this has affected me. In theory I shouldn't care. I haven't been an open supporter of OW (although I do cheer them on), and I haven't listened to a Mormon Stories podcast in a while (well, up until the Sandra Tanner interviews; I find her fascinating). And yet I was pretty mad last Thursday. Started drafting my own resignation letter even, although that's not the path I'm gong to take.

SHW doesn't care - she looks at it with a bit of bemusement, and maybe it's reinforced her decision to leave, but that's it.

I think you should care. One of the strangest pieces of advice i hear on here and elsewhere is to "leave it alone". I guess it's an ok piece of advice for some who go on for years obsessing about Mormons, but what kind of heartless freak would you have to be to suddenly leave an institution that has dominated your life for decades and then never think or talk about it again?

[ERCougar]

I have to chuckle at something Solon said the other day. He and his wife were over the other night (the day this whole thing broke, I think) and she said she didn't really care about having the priesthood. He replied, "that's because you don't value it. If it were ten million dollars, just going to each of the men in the church, would you care?"

I laughed then, but it's actually a pretty good point. You women have access to it...you just have to marry a man.

[DrumNFeather]

I think you should care. One of the strangest pieces of advice i hear on here and elsewhere is to "leave it alone". I guess it's an ok piece of advice for some who go on for years obsessing about Mormons, but what kind of heartless freak would you have to be to suddenly leave an institution that has dominated your life for decades and then never think or talk about it again?

Oh, I don't know...UD has pretty much moved on.

[Non Sequitur]

When it comes to religion, you're about as predictable as SU.

[Pheidippides]

Oh, I don't know...UD has pretty much moved on.

So I hear. And I applaud him for it. It takes time.

[Goatnapper'96]

On FB Dehlin posts about his attendance at church today.

I view the two public situations as different. I think both of these two know exactly what they are doing and from my perspective have both orchestrated a great deal of their media attention. They clearly have a goal to influence things and also likely love the attention.

Saying that I think the OW gal clearly wants the Church administration to change a Church policy. In my perspective that is where one runs afoul of the LDS Church. You can think whatever you want but once you start organizing an effort to force or pressure the LDS Church to change its policies you run into the realms of how the Mormon Church defines "apostacy." Really it shouldn't be surprising to anyone familiar with the Church.

Dehlin on the other hand might be a wolf in sheeps clothing to many but to me he is just a guy willing to engage in thorny subjects and allow anyone and everyone to find their own conclusions and he tries to find ways to help humans find support in whatever conclusion they come to. Now to folks attracted to these thorny subjects the majority of them are likely to find their way outside the Church and it appears that many blame John for that reality. Perhaps his work is a catalyst but I tend to think most of them would have found themselves outside eventually - I reject the notion that people don't eventually act upon their own faith or lack thereof.

In some ways I think the Church would do Dehlin a favor by excommunicating him. The dude clearly loves the social aspects. However, he seems to me to continue to hate himself due to his total lack of faith in the Church. He clearly has not, and I doubt he ever will, find a way to fake the religious aspect. It just isn't working for him. In this religion without some way of finding meaning in the religious aspects you will often find yourself miserable - as that is what this organization is about bringing souls to Christ through ordinances. However, he loves being a part of the community. If the Church were to sever his ability to participate in the religious aspect but his wife stayed the course, which is clearly the wildcard because if in her world the "Eternal Family" aspect was forever severed she might not want to participate, then John could still come, gets hugs and attention and all the stuff he loves so much in the Church community but his personal cognitive dissonance might finally come to an end.