Standing up for your beliefs

[SoonerCoug]

Growing up in the U.C., I often heard people mention how important it was to "stand up for your beliefs."

The whole concept of standing up for your beliefs (the way Mormons use the phrase) is ridiculous. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that your beliefs are good or worth standing up for, even if you or your neighbors think certain beliefs seem good. Furthermore, beliefs based on fact generally don't require such an aggressive defense unless the audience is incapable of rational thought.

Free speech with dispassionate dialogue about facts while simultaneously questioning unsupported beliefs--now that's an approach I could buy. I would totally go to church if this is how Mormonism operated. I'm not saying that Mormon beliefs are all bad. I'm just saying that some are probably good, some are bad, and others are neutral--but most Mormon beliefs are unsupported by evidence. (I'd also like to point out that feelings do not qualify as evidence.)

I question the entire premise that it is good to believe in things, which are not seen, that are supposedly true based on a feeling in your heart. I thought Alma was awesome when I was in 2nd grade, but now I realize that Alma was so so wrong. Feelings are a very scary reason to believe in something.

The risk of my approach is that all the mythology would crumble. I say that's OK.

Lastly, lest I be accused of standing up for my beliefs, I'd say preemptively that I'm not standing up for beliefs. I'm standing up for fact-based, rational thought.

[Indy Coug]

You just believe you are

[SoonerCoug]

You just believe you are

I know you agree with me but just don't want to admit it. You're a smart dude. You know I'm right.

[Blueintheface]

I believe, nay I know, that you spend too much time thinking about the LDS church. I can feel it in my bones con cada fibre de mi ser.

[Indy Coug]

I don't believe in anything.

[SoonerCoug]

I believe, nay I know, that you spend too much time thinking about the LDS church. I can feel it in my bones con cada fibre de mi ser.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that my parents took me to nursery, primary, gave me the power of God on earth (priesthood), enrolled me in seminary, and sent me to siberia for two years and also to the Mormon University, which I love more than any other university even though it is an insane asylum.

I forgot to say that I hope no one quits going to church because of things that I write.

Back in the CougarGuard days, SU once told me that I was well on my way to inactivity. I rebuked him, but he was right. That said, I don't think I would have gone inactive if my wife weren't on board with the plan.

The most interesting thing happened a couple of months ago. My father-in-law, who is about 60 years old, denies belief in Mormonism, and quit going to church about 25 years ago, chewed me out over the phone for not going to church. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one. Any help would be appreciated. Any psychologists on this board? Where is Danimal?

[Omaha 680]

Growing up in the U.C., I often heard people mention how important it was to "stand up for your beliefs."

The whole concept of standing up for your beliefs (the way Mormons use the phrase) is ridiculous. Just because you believe something doesn't mean that your beliefs are good or worth standing up for, even if you or your neighbors think certain beliefs seem good. Furthermore, beliefs based on fact generally don't require such an aggressive defense unless the audience is incapable of rational thought.

Free speech with dispassionate dialogue about facts while simultaneously questioning unsupported beliefs--now that's an approach I could buy. I would totally go to church if this is how Mormonism operated. I'm not saying that Mormon beliefs are all bad. I'm just saying that some are probably good, some are bad, and others are neutral--but most Mormon beliefs are unsupported by evidence. (I'd also like to point out that feelings do not qualify as evidence.)

I question the entire premise that it is good to believe in things, which are not seen, that are supposedly true based on a feeling in your heart. I thought Alma was awesome when I was in 2nd grade, but now I realize that Alma was so so wrong. Feelings are a very scary reason to believe in something.

The risk of my approach is that all the mythology would crumble. I say that's OK.

Lastly, lest I be accused of standing up for my beliefs, I'd say preemptively that I'm not standing up for beliefs. I'm standing up for fact-based, rational thought.

How do you personally deal with love? Specifically, how do you justify life decisions and behavior based on love when rational analysis would lead you to a different choice?

[Blueintheface]

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that my parents took me to nursery, primary, gave me the power of God on earth (priesthood), enrolled me in seminary, and sent me to siberia for two years and also to the Mormon University, which I love more than any other university even though it is an insane asylum.

I too followed this path and until recently I was an "inmate". I guess I am just able to evaluate facts and beliefs without projecting my insecurities on others (just being honest).

[SoonerCoug]

How do you personally deal with love? Specifically, how do you justify life decisions and behavior based on love when rational analysis would lead you to a different choice?

Are you referring to pair bonding or love toward relatives?

[Omaha 680]

Are you referring to pair bonding or love toward relatives?

Either. Both involve feelings that can be irrational and lead to "irrational" choices (if you are striving only for logic and fact-based decision making).

[SoonerCoug]

Either. Both involve feelings that can be irrational and lead to "irrational" choices (if you are striving only for logic and fact-based decision making).

So you're saying that a rational human being shouldn't do anything based on love. You're saying that an rational human being shouldn't have sex with the person he loves because that would be irrational??? I think it's very rational to have sex with the person you love, but even that should be approached rationally (e.g. STD testing, contraception, and so on). I think there is some good psychological research to back that one up.

I'd say that you shouldn't commit crimes because you love someone. That would be irrational and stupid.

Teaching people not to masturbate because it's a sin--that would also be irrational and downright crazy. That's not a reasonable belief. This is also backed up by good research.

Not allowing gay people to have loving, committed marital relationships within a religious group is also irrational and stupid.

[Omaha 680]

So you're saying that a rational human being shouldn't do anything based on love. You're saying that an rational human being shouldn't have sex with the person he loves because that would be irrational??? I think it's very rational to have sex with the person you love, but even that should be approached rationally (e.g. STD testing, contraception, and so on). I think there is some good psychological research to back that one up.

I'd say that you shouldn't commit crimes because you love someone. That would be irrational and stupid.

Teaching people not to masturbate because it's a sin--that would also be irrational and downright crazy. That's not a belief. This is also backed up by good research.

Not allowing gay people to have loving, committed marital relationships within a religious group is also irrational and stupid.

I was typing up a response, but you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I can see which way you want to take the thread and I'll concede my point was a side-bar. Nevermind.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

11 posts in a thread before Sooner got to masturbation, he's weakening.

[LiveCoug]

Groundbreaking stuff, Sooner. I had no idea this is how you felt!

[pellegrino]

11 posts in a thread before Sooner got to masturbation, he's weakening.

or going blind.