Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the News

[old_gregg]

Cry me a river.

Nobody forced Mr. Douchebag to engage that crushing debt.

assume you will be tearing up your social security checks and declining medicare? be mad that loan forgiveness programs exist (and that they have to exist), not that this guy is taking advantage of them. you would be a dummy not to.

other question: how is an orthodontist only making $225k?

[All-American]

assume you will be tearing up your social security checks and declining medicare? be mad that loan forgiveness programs exist (and that they have to exist), not that this guy is taking advantage of them. you would be a dummy not to.

other question: how is an orthodontist only making $225k?

SS won't exist by then anyway.

[Donuthole]

other question: how is an orthodontist only making $225k?

This is the biggest question I have as well. That seems ridiculously low for that kind of debt. I figured these guys were making 350-500k to be willing to take on that kind of debt.

[Mormon Red Death]

Ah, thanks.

Not feeling too sorry for him. The majority of his loan is going to be forgiven, thanks to government programs. All he has to do is pay 10% of his discretionary income to loans for ~20 years. His house and Tesla are safe for now.

Well he will have to pay income tax on the 2 million forgiven as well.

[Shaka]

Dude made his bed, and should have to sleep in it. Many of us were faced with those same dilemmas but wisely chose the cheaper route over the prestigious route for this precise reason (and because we were repeatedly warned that interest rates were volatile and that there was no guarantee our rates wouldn't increase until we locked). This guy had his "aha!" momemt a bit later, but he still had it and decided to plug along.

Nobody here is jealous of this guy's used Tesla or his 400k Draper home. But it was poor decision making to jump into that lifestyle right out of school, particularly given his debt load. Spend your first 10 years living in a rambler in WVC and driving a Camry.

Also, generally speaking, I'm ok with a debt forgiveness plan for necessary industries where there is a shortage of professionals. But dentistry/orthodonture is certainly not in that category (neither is law).

I agree with this too although I think there's a middle ground. Orthodontists go to school for a lot longer than a lawyer so they sort of go through a double or triple jeopardy. I think the system needs some tweaking starting with USC and their outrageous tuition.

Also agree that this guy should be making a lot more money as you pointed out above.

[Northwestcoug]

I think the obvious wrong turn for this guy is when he did the 3 years of orthodontist training. Dentists still have to pay tuition for residency and don't get a salary. And he wasn't paying anything off his loans. That is when his debt really ballooned. Had he not done residency, he would have graduated dental school with a much more manageable ~350K in debt. If he still felt that was too burdensome, he could have joined a community health clinic that gets federal grant money. In 10 years his entire federal debt would have been forgiven.

The choice was his go to USC, continue residency there, and defer/forbear his loans as much as possible. This was a perfect storm that created his massive debt. I think it's commendable that he is trying to create public awareness for graduate school debt. But the rising interest rates for his loans were not the main reason why his debt ballooned.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I assume if you can get into USC, you can get into schools that are less expensive. Does becoming an orthodontist require that you go to one of the best dental schools? There's a guy from my mission, a couple years older than me (we shared a couple companions, that's how I remember him), who I noticed has a couple offices in Utah County. He went to Penn for his dental school. The orthodontist I had as a kid moved into our ward fresh out of UCLA, I started going to him three years later. I imagine USC, UCLA and Penn are all some of the best dental schools and perhaps that's what it takes to move on to orthodontics?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Guys, come on. Anyone who is a dentist deserves our pity.

[Art Vandelay]

Ive has the discussion with my wife. If our youngest decides to go into the medical field, specially if he wants to become an optometrist (the poor not-a-real-doctor stepchild) I will strongly encourage him to go to the least expensive (accredited) school possible. For optometry/dentistry/ortho there is zero benefit from a school prestige or ranking. I would also encourage going into the military or an underserved area for 4-8 years to retire as much debt as possible.

[Northwestcoug]

Ive has the discussion with my wife. If our youngest decides to go into the medical field, specially if he wants to become an optometrist (the poor not-a-real-doctor stepchild) I will strongly encourage him to go to the least expensive (accredited) school possible. For optometry/dentistry/ortho there is zero benefit from a school prestige or ranking. I would also encourage going into the military or an underserved area for 4-8 years to retire as much debt as possible.

What's the average optometry school tuition, Art?

Going through health career options with my two eldest, I'm flabbergasted how much med school tuition has jumped. In my day there seemed to be a few outliers >40K/year. Now that figure seems only slightly above average for private MD schools.

[Donuthole]

I assume if you can get into USC, you can get into schools that are less expensive. Does becoming an orthodontist require that you go to one of the best dental schools? There's a guy from my mission, a couple years older than me (we shared a couple companions, that's how I remember him), who I noticed has a couple offices in Utah County. He went to Penn for his dental school. The orthodontist I had as a kid moved into our ward fresh out of UCLA, I started going to him three years later. I imagine USC, UCLA and Penn are all some of the best dental schools and perhaps that's what it takes to move on to orthodontics?

I know UNLV has many dental students who go on to orthodontics, either at UNLV or elsewhere. But from what i've heard, it is fairly competitive; you can't just graduate and then enroll in a orthodontics program. Only the top portion of the class has a shot at that. I wonder if going to a more prestigious dental school allows you to graduate low in the class and still have graduate options.

Either way, it doesn't mean this guy shouldn't sleep in the bed he made. He didn't want the risk of having to do well at a cheaper school, so he chose to pay more money for more security. Then he compounded the problem (literally) when he chose to continue into an expensive graduate program.

[Bo Diddley]

Ive has the discussion with my wife. If our youngest decides to go into the medical field, specially if he wants to become an optometrist (the poor not-a-real-doctor stepchild) I will strongly encourage him to go to the least expensive (accredited) school possible. For optometry/dentistry/ortho there is zero benefit from a school prestige or ranking. I would also encourage going into the military or an underserved area for 4-8 years to retire as much debt as possible.

Every flight surgeon I've talked to has loved being able to fly in addition to doing the doctor thing. I imagine it adds a dimension to their lives that helps relieve much of the stress.

[Art Vandelay]

What's the average optometry school tuition, Art?

Going through health career options with my two eldest, I'm flabbergasted how much med school tuition has jumped. In my day there seemed to be a few outliers >40K/year. Now that figure seems only slightly above average for private MD schools.

Where I attended - top tier private school it’s now currently 30k/yr. with living expenses most new grads are coming out 200-250k in debt. That is 2-3x what most of my classmates did. However, ODs salary has only gone up 25%

[Northwestcoug]

Where I attended - top tier private schoolit’s now currently 30k/yr. with living expenses most new grads are coming out 200-250k in debt. That is 2-3x what most of my classmates did. However, ODs salary has only gone up 25%

Nice humblebrag!

I'm seeing the same thing in med school. We just interviewed an applicant who wasn't sure she could even join our group and eventually buy into our practice because of her debt. 4 years of residency and 2 years fellowship, without paying anything off her med school loans. She's ~450K in debt. And her expected salary isn't that much greater than what I was looking at 10 years ago. That just seems crazy to me.

[hostile]

Nice humblebrag!

I'm seeing the same thing in med school. We just interviewed an applicant who wasn't sure she could even join our group and eventually buy into our practice because of her debt. 4 years of residency and 2 years fellowship, without paying anything off her med school loans. She's ~450K in debt. And her expected salary isn't that much greater than what I was looking at 10 years ago. That just seems crazy to me.

I think we will see this more and more. Medical school is so expensive relative to what expected earnings are and the numbers continue to diverge.