NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

[Dwight Schr-ute]

We know about it 'now', as in none of us knew the messy details if we relied solely on what we were taught in church. But yeah, I would say I was shocked when I found out how he practiced polygamy. Knowing what I know now, and having a more complete picture of Joseph Smith, I guess I can say not much is shocking to me anymore. Which is quite the ringing endorsement for the man members sing praises to Sunday...

Save Jesus only...

I was at a friend in our ward's house last weekend. Another member of the ward was there and was recapping a conversation she was having with her mother. Apparently her mother hasn't been active for practically ever in this girl's life. This girl who is active/married in the temple was presented by some "anti material" by her mother. This girl's response to her mother was, "I go to my church meetings. I go to the temple. I know what the church believes. Not these people who don't do those things and make up what I believe."

I'm not sure exactly what facts she was presented with, but this interaction seems to be a pretty accurate depiction of the average church member. Because I've never heard about it at church, it obviously isn't true.

[Y84it]

I guess in my assesment of all this "Stuff" is I don't care what the dark history is. The Church should be teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is were my testimony foundation is. I do believe the BoM to be the word of god and becasue of that Testimony I believe JS was a prophet of god.

If that is my foundation none of the other stuff matters.

I guess me not taking this seriously enough in your eyes means I am not educated enough to understand the seriousness of these alligations. If that is your opinion that is fine with me. I am not a well educated lawyer. I am a simple HS educated salesman in Las vegas. Married with 4 girls under the age of 9 doing my best to live a happy life here on earth. It's working for me. I will leave it at that.

[MarkGrace]

I'm a 5th gen Mormon, served a mission, and had only heard Joseph may have had some "spiritual wives". Most everything I'd heard about Joseph and polygamy was chalked up to "anti-Mormon" sources. I learned the truth when I read Compton's book, which had been summarized in the local paper. I couldn't wrap my head around polyandry and so, felt I had to research it for myself. Where were mainstream Mormons learning the warty truth about these things before 1998 when Compton released "In Sacred Loneliness"? Was there even one source that wasn't considered "anti-Mormon" before that book came out? It's not surprising to me at all that a European Area Authority didn't have a clue about such things. I think a lot of folks around here either stretch the truth about how long they've known, or genuinely don't recall.

But we're talking 2013 (or somewhere thereabouts), not 1998.

Personally I don't remember the exact moment when I found out -- not sure why I would, as I don't know why it would be so alarming on its face. I do know that it was prior to my mission and I heard it in church. Also heard about shit like Adam-God, blood atonement, etc., but it could just be that the EQ in my ward was kind of bonkers.

[ERCougar]

I'll also point out that there may be a silent majority to whom these revelations ARE shocking.
When I first came to CG, I knew next to nothing of this stuff. Wait...lest you call me a liar, I knew this stuff very superficially, but had no idea just how serious the issues really were. I was floored repeatedly my first few months here. But what annoyed and shook me up even more were the "Eh...so what? Nothing new to see here" reactions that kept popping up in response. No, there was plenty new to see here, and to me, it just looked insecure. I don't know if I was right, but that's how it came across.
I don't understand the point of the argument, if it's not a defense mechanism reassuring oneself that all is really well in Zion. Maybe you did know about all of this. But to claim that all of this is or should be common knowledge is ridiculous, and ignores the claims of a lot of people. And the only point it remotely addresses is that the Church lies about things, which isn't even a very important issue. The church didn't lie about BY's polygamy or the Black priesthood, but I'm not really cool with either one.

[MarkGrace]

I didn't take issue with your point that Sooner was saying "shocking" in the context of CS because I didn't think we were really going to fall back to that.
So now I will: no, the real context of the discussion is of a Swedish member learning of the circumstances of JS' polygamy. Yes, I can see how that letter would be pretty shocking in that context.

I read his post again and maybe you're right. I just remember reading "the letter he wrote to these girls were shocking," and then seeing a letter that wasn't to a girl specifically and was not shocking. I was legitimately expecting to see something that would catch me off-guard.

[ERCougar]

But we're talking 2013 (or somewhere thereabouts), not 1998.

Personally I don't remember the exact moment when I found out -- not sure why I would, as I don't know why it would be so alarming on its face. I do know that it was prior to my mission and I heard it in church. Also heard about shit like Adam-God, blood atonement, etc., but it could just be that the EQ in my ward was kind of bonkers.

My walls started crumbling in 2007. I didn't read the article too carefully, but it seems this GA started hitting this stuff in 2010. That's not all that long ago.

And you can't really mean that Joseph sneaking around marrying teenage girls behind Emma's back was not "alarming on its face". If you do, this is a pointless conversation, because the places we're coming from are just too different.

[Indy Coug]

But we're talking 2013 (or somewhere thereabouts), not 1998.

Personally I don't remember the exact moment when I found out -- not sure why I would, as I don't know why it would be so alarming on its face. I do know that it was prior to my mission and I heard it in church. Also heard about shit like Adam-God, blood atonement, etc., but it could just be that the EQ in my ward was kind of bonkers.

Approximate ages when I learned stuff:

1. JS and BY polygamy - 11 or 12
2. MMM - 14 or 15
3. Book of Abraham - 14 or 15
4. Seer stones in a hat - 14 or 15
5. Blacks and the priesthood - 10
6. Moon men - 17


Some of the stuff I learned from my parents, some I learned from other church members and some from my HS classmates who were eager to persecute their only LDS classmate about his beliefs. I'm not saying I knew all of the details, but to be honest, the emergence of those additional details really hasn't had any impact on my testimony.

[ERCougar]

I read his post again and maybe you're right. I just remember reading "the letter he wrote to these girls were shocking," and then seeing a letter that wasn't to a girl specifically and was not shocking. I was legitimately expecting to see something that would catch me off-guard.

Ok...you were speaking personally. Fair enough.

[Goatnapper'96]

It takes a lot to shock us anymore. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. Does that mean that we've already seen it all before and we've figured out a way to live with it? Or does it mean that we've already made up our minds that, come what may, it's not going to make any difference to the way we see the church, no matter how shocking or unsettling others may find those details?

I think the really interesting question is whether we are seeing a sea-change at the top. The NYT piece on the Area Authority is one thing; the new JS papers project is another; Marlin K. Jensen and others troubleshooting throughout the church; the Teryl Givens seminars; Jeffrey R. Holland's acknowledgement of difficult issues in Gen Conf; the public spanking of Dan Peterson and the FARMS dinosaurs... I'm getting the sense that the church is starting to transition to a new model of dealing with its history. And I think it's encouraging.

I think there is change being forced upon the Church. The internet is very much shaking up social structures. It eliminates the role that parents/other adult authority figures had as gatekeepers of information. I think the Church is reacting to this external stress and realizing that they have no choice but to deal with these issues. Now that is not to say I believe there is a mass wave of apostacy and all that jazz, I mean if a few stringpullers take their ball and go home I expect that and probably find it healthy (there always has to be a Malad, ID out there for the malcontents to congregate on one half of town) but I think the culture will change to allow these realities to be discussed instead of dismissing it as either anti or "not relevant to your eternal salvation...." That is what I am hoping for, at least.

[MarkGrace]

I'll also point out that there may be a silent majority to whom these revelations ARE shocking.
When I first came to CG, I knew next to nothing of this stuff. Wait...lest you call me a liar, I knew this stuff very superficially, but had no idea just how serious the issues really were. I was floored repeatedly my first few months here. But what annoyed and shook me up even more were the "Eh...so what? Nothing new to see here" reactions that kept popping up in response. No, there was plenty new to see here, and to me, it just looked insecure. I don't know if I was right, but that's how it came across.
I don't understand the point of the argument, if it's not a defense mechanism reassuring oneself that all is really well in Zion. Maybe you did know about all of this. But to claim that all of this is or should be common knowledge, and ignoring the claims of a lot of people. And the only point it remotely addresses is that the Church lies about things, which isn't even a very important issue. The church didn't lie about BY's polygamy or the Black priesthood, but I'm not really cool with either one.

I think people are chasing different points here. My only real point is that the article plainly states he had problems when he found out Joseph practiced polygamy. This revelation was apparently fairly recent to him. This aspect of it just kind of blows my mind and I find it hard to believe. However, as Sooner already said, the article probably painted it differently than what was actually the case. He was likely more troubled when he learned about the nature and nuances of the practice. That seems entirely believable.

[Applejack]

I think there is change being forced upon the Church. The internet is very much shaking up social structures. It eliminates the roll that parents/other adult authority figures had as gatekeepers of information. I think the Church is reacting to this external stress and realizing that they have no choice but to deal with these issues. Now that is not to say I believe there is a mass wave of apostacy and all that jazz, I mean if a few stringpullers take their ball and go home I expect that and probably find it healthy (there always has to be a Malad, ID out there for the malcontents to congregate on one half of town) but I think the culture will change to allow these realities to be discussed instead of dismissing it as either anti or "not relevant to your eternal salvation...." That is what I am hoping for, at least.

I think the church is in a tough place regarding transparency. While I agree with ERCougar about inoculation being the best strategy for young mormons (just look at this board - the Progmos all claim to have learned about JS's true nature in law school while the Non-Progmos all claim to have learned this stuff in nursery), it is a terrible strategy for the missionary effort. Can you imagine taking an investigator to church on the day in which the manual describes Joseph Smith's polyandry?

[jay santos]

But we're talking 2013 (or somewhere thereabouts), not 1998.

Personally I don't remember the exact moment when I found out -- not sure why I would, as I don't know why it would be so alarming on its face. I do know that it was prior to my mission and I heard it in church. Also heard about shit like Adam-God, blood atonement, etc., but it could just be that the EQ in my ward was kind of bonkers.

As has been mentioned several times in the thread, there is a big difference between "heard about" and "actually realized it was a real issue". There are life long members all over the church that are learning all this stuff for the first time now or within the last ten years. The international members are probably a little behind on the curve.

[MarkGrace]

And you can't really mean that Joseph sneaking around marrying teenage girls behind Emma's back was not "alarming on its face". If you do, this is a pointless conversation, because the places we're coming from are just too different.

Err...I just separated this out in the last post. But to reiterate, there is a difference between simply finding out Joseph practiced polygamy and then finding out all the sordid little details. I'm talking about the former, not the latter. At whatever moment I found out Joseph had also engaged in polygamy, it just wouldn't have been that alarming. Brigham had, other early church leaders had, it just kind of made sense that Joseph would have as well.

[MarkGrace]

As has been mentioned several times in the thread, there is a big difference between "heard about" and "actually realized it was a real issue". There are life long members all over the church that are learning all this stuff for the first time now or within the last ten years. The international members are probably a little behind on the curve.

I guess there's no need to write what I just did for a third time.

[Northwestcoug]

I guess in my assesment of all this "Stuff" is I don't care what the dark history is. The Church should be teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That is were my testimony foundation is. I do believe the BoM to be the word of god and becasue of that Testimony I believe JS was a prophet of god.

If that is my foundation none of the other stuff matters.

I guess me not taking this seriously enough in your eyes means I am not educated enough to understand the seriousness of these alligations. If that is your opinion that is fine with me. I am not a well educated lawyer. I am a simple HS educated salesman in Las vegas. Married with 4 girls under the age of 9 doing my best to live a happy life here on earth. It's working for me. I will leave it at that.

And this is how it should be, for people on both sides of the spectrum. If after weighing all the facts and evidence people still believe in the truth claims of the church, they should be respected by those who have made the opposite decision. And vice versa.