NY Times Article on Dissaffected Swedish Area Authority

[SoCalCoug]

You guys know it's not just Joseph Smith who married teenagers, right?

Brigham Young:

5/8/1844 (age 42) married Clarissa Caroline Decker, age 15
10/3/1844 (age 43) married Elizabeth Fairchild, age 16
10/10/1844 (age 43) married Diana Chase, age 17
4/30/1845 (age 43) married Emmeline Free, age 18
1/21/1846 (age 44) married Ellen Rockwood, age 16
2/3/1846 (age 44) married Mary Ann Turley, age 18
3/20/1846 (age 44) married Mary Jane Bigelow, age 19
3/20/1847 (age 45) married Lucy Bigelow, age 16

There were also a number who were in their 20's who he married while in his 40's or later

John Taylor:

I couldn't find marriage dates for him but his last wife, Josephine Elizabeth Roueche was born in 1860; Taylor was born in 1808 and died in 1887 at age 78 (she was 27 when he died).

Wilford Woodruff:

3/13/1853 (age 47) married Emma Smoot Smith, age 15 (and 12 days)
3/13/1853 (age 47) married Sarah Elinore Brown, age 19
7/31/1857 (age 51) married Sarah Delight Stocking, age 19

He later married a 25-year-old at age 70 (was later divorced)

Lorenzo Snow:

In 1848 (age 33-34) married Eleanor Houtz, who turned 17 in August 1848
In 1857 (age 42-43) married Mary Elizabeth Houtz, who turned 17 in May 1857
4/4/1859 (age 44) married Phoebe Amelia Woodruff (Wilford Woodruff's daughter), age 17 and 1 month
6/12/1871 (age 57) married Sarah Minnie Ephramina Jensen, age 15

Joseph F. Smith:

3/1/1868 (age 29) married Sarah Ellen Richards, age 17
1/13/1884 (age 45) married Mary Taylor Schwarz, age 18

Those are just the church presidents - I haven't seen what apostles and other church leaders did.

I kind of feel bad for the young men of that era - the old guys were apparently marrying all the young women.

[Y84it]

So if I understand everyone correctly JS poligamy not being taught in Primary is the reason why the Church is a fraud?

[jay santos]

So if I understand everyone correctly JS poligamy not being taught in Primary is the reason why the Church is a fraud?

yes

[Y84it]

yes

Gotcha!

[Art Vandelay]

When we were reading the D&C as a family, I spent a fair amount of time talking with my kids (or maybe, at my kids, is a better description for 5:30am fatherly discourses) about Joseph. We talked about how (as far as I understand) he translated the BoM using different methods, his starting of polygamy, and discussed his tendency towards anger, and a few other faults. I let them know there was a lot that doesn't make much sense to me, and I don't understand why it was necessary. But I also shared how I've had answers to sincere prayers (though certainly not every prayer), and how understanding and following the "precepts" taught in the BoM and by Joseph have helped me in my life.

My 17YO and I have had several conversations about doubt. I think doubt is normal, and even healthy if it prompts you to search for truth. However, I think the search needs to involve prayer and use of the Holy Ghost -obviously, for many this approach may be the antithesis to what searching for truth means to them. I don't want my kids to feel guilty if they don't "know the church is true". In fact, I've discouraged them from ever using that phraseology since it often used without thought, and (IMO) way too general. I was very proud when my daughter shared her testimony recently in F&T and said she didn't know it all was true, but she knew how she felt when she did what was right, and she knew what it felt like to have a prayer answered. She is a much better, and infinitely more mature teenager, than I ever was.

[Northwestcoug]

Unless I'm missing something, I still don't get how this is shocking.

I can't speak for others, but the audacity of him referring to having an encounter with her without Emma's knowledge is offensive to me.

[Goatnapper'96]

So if I understand everyone correctly JS poligamy not being taught in Primary is the reason why the Church is a fraud?

I don't think people link it to being a fraud, but folks will link the lack of honesty as being fraudulent.

Personally, I don't think the Church needs to change what it teaches but I would like the culture to value truth enough that such subjects could be discussed in Church environments. I am not looking to massage folks' inner thighs but I think we should be able to live in the factual world.

[Goatnapper'96]

I can't speak for others, but the audacity of him referring to having an encounter with her without Emma's knowledge is offensive to me.

I have a 5 year old who frequently goes, on his own, up the back side hill to visit his cousins. When we query why he does this knowing our preference and parental request that he notify us and ask for permission he adroitly answers: "I knew you would say no!"

Perhaps Joseph was a forerunner to the great Van Hagar and just felt Emma didn't need "Unlawful Carnal Knowledge!"

[Y84it]

I don't think people link it to being a fraud, but folks will link the lack of honesty as being fraudulent.

Personally, I don't think the Church needs to change what it teaches but I would like the culture to value truth enough that such subjects could be discussed in Church environments. I am not looking to massage folks' inner thighs but I think we should be able to live in the factual world.

Is not talking about it dishonest? I get why it can shock some people. We are talking 1800's here. Look back in any history of any club that has a long history and you will find crazy things. I am sure my understanding of why certain things are/where done will make more sense when I am dead.

Or I will find out that fasted once a month was just torture. Either way I am ok with it

[Northwestcoug]

I have a 5 year old who frequently goes, on his own, up the back side hill to visit his cousins. When we query why he does this knowing our preference and parental request that he notify us and ask for permission he adroitly answers: "I knew you would say no!"

Perhaps Joseph was a forerunner to the great Van Hagar and just felt Emma didn't need "Unlawful Carnal Knowledge!"

Yeah, I guess I wouldn't want to get Spanked if my wife found out I had some Poundcake while I was going In And Out in the Pleasure Dome...

[Goatnapper'96]

Is not talking about it dishonest? I get why it can shock some people. We are talking 1800's here. Look back in any history of any club that has a long history and you will find crazy things. I am sure my understanding of why certain things are/where done will make more sense when I am dead.

Or I will find out that fasted once a month was just torture. Either way I am ok with it

I don't think not talking about it is dishonest, but I think there is a cultural attitude that anything negative about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young is "anti" when it might just be the truth. I am not one of these stringpulling pussies who goes about blaming every woe that mankind suffers from being caused by either the Mormon Church or Mormon culture, but I dislike the pedestal that leaders are put upon and I don't find that cultural trend healthy for the leaders or the led.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I don't think people link it to being a fraud, but folks will link the lack of honesty as being fraudulent.

Personally, I don't think the Church needs to change what it teaches but I would like the culture to value truth enough that such subjects could be discussed in Church environments. I am not looking to massage folks' inner thighs but I think we should be able to live in the factual world.

Winner [/endthread]

[jay santos]

Winner [/endthread]

I thought the "I knew you would say no" post was the winner.

[MarkGrace]

I can't speak for others, but the audacity of him referring to having an encounter with her without Emma's knowledge is offensive to me.

But is it shocking? It's what we already know about Joseph's practice of polygamy. Sooner said the letters he wrote to some of these girls were shocking. And then he posts a letter that is not only not a to a girl specifically (it's to her parents and her), but also doesn't contain anything or than what we already know (i.e., that Joseph hid what he was doing from Emma). That letter is about as shocking as Amy Duncan alleging Tim had a gay affair.

[Y84it]

I don't think not talking about it is dishonest, but I think there is a cultural attitude that anything negative about Joseph Smith or Brigham Young is "anti" when it might just be the truth. I am not one of these stringpulling pussies who goes about blaming every woe that mankind suffers from being caused by either the Mormon Church or Mormon culture, but I dislike the pedestal that leaders are put upon and I don't find that cultural trend healthy for the leaders or the led.

I agree with that. Men are flawed.