The New Yorker: Prop. 8 a last stand

[tooblue]

Sport, you are quoting me there, not the author.

Duh sport, why do you think YOU is capitalized? It's valiant that you wish to defend the honor of the author. The reality is his bigotry is there for all to see.

[SeattleUte]

Since word-smithing has already occurred in this thread perhaps I should replace the word bigot with racist. Your assertion is that visible minorities are not smart enough to make informed decisions on this subject matter. For the record, Seattle, you have now conceded that you are in fact a racist.

Mormons, who are mostly white, were just as ignorant. I am the opposite of racist becsue I don't shy away at the color line in condemning a CHOICE people made as uninformed, ignorant.

Tell me tooblue, why do you think people voted for Proposition 8? I know many, just like you, made up their minds according to what religious leaders told them to do. Any other explanation? Enlighten me.

[SeattleUte]

Come on, Seattle. For once, you think for yourself!

Signed, the guy who says "maybe those seers were right."

[tooblue]

Mormons, who are mostly white, were just as ignorant. I am the opposite of racist becsue I don't shy away at the color line in condemning a CHOICE people made as uninformed, ignorant.

Tell me tooblue, why do you think people voted against Proposition 8? I know many, just like you, made up their minds according to what religious leaders told them to do. Any other explanation? Enlighten me.

Your desire to make this about me is further evidence of the untenable nature of your position. Your bravado in suggesting you don't want to shy away from the line is laughable. Have you had a single conversation with a visible minority about this subject matter? Have you tried to understand a visible minorities disgust at the insinuation that homosexuality is the same as being black or hispanic? Do you even associate with a single visible minority?

Your logic on this subject (along with the authors) has been exposed for what it is. Own up to it and move on.

[tooblue]

Signed, the guy who says "maybe those seers were right."

Context? Your attempts to make this about me will not work. You have conceded that you are a racist. Apologize for the untenable nature of your logic and move on.

[SeattleUte]

Have you tried to understand a visible minorities disgust at the insinuation that homosexuality is the same as being black or hispanic?

You are probably twisted enough to think you are doing them a service by characterizing their views this way. You aren't. I hope you are wrong and I suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Rather than self absorption such as you describe I would prefer to blame it on good old fashioned religion.

[SeattleUte]

Context? Your attempts to make this about me will not work. You have conceded that you are a racist. Apologize for the untenable nature of your logic and move on.

I have made this about YOU? Tooblue, this is the way it always is with you. At least you haven't called me a bitter apostate yet. the rage with which you respond to prevailing secular, educated attitudes toward your beliefs just exposes you as an insecure mess when it comes to your religion. I feel sorry for you. Sorry, but 100% of people like Hertzberg feel the way he does about what you believe. Just look around, and get over it.

[tooblue]

You are probably twisted enough to think you are doing them a service by characterizing their views this way. You aren't. I hope you are wrong and I suspect you don't know what you're talking about. Rather than self absorption such as you describe I would prefer to blame it on good old fashioned religion.

Blame it on religion ... Mantra Mantra Mantra! Interesting that you cannot admit to having a single conversation with a visible minority about this or ANY OTHER subject.

And that is followed by the mantra of the intellectual ... 'doesn't know what he's talking about.' Well, I do live in the most culturally diverse city in the world. I could have a conversation at the dinner table Or, before I officiate a b-ball game for a Muslim basketball league earlier this afternoon. Or, at work with colleagues or students. Or ...

[The Rambam]

I agree with you completely. But it's one thing to type this stuff on an anonymous message board and another thing entirely to say any of this stuff to local or general Church leaders in person.

You talk tough, but I'm sure you tone it down in a major way when you're on the record. I know a few Bishops who would let you get away with saying everything you type on this board, but I think I know more who would want to kick you out of the fold despite your underlying loyalty to the Church.

I would say it to the face of an Apostle if they honestly asked my opinion and were listening to my full reply.

I would never say this stuff while teaching my Gospel Doctrine class--I do want to keep my recommend and don't trust local leaders in general enough to put this stuff out there for them to chew on. So you are entirely correct in regards to local leaders. The risk of getting into a "submit to my authority" pissing match with a stake president is just too great.

That is what is so great about an anonymous board.

[tooblue]

I have made this about YOU? Tooblue, this is the way it always is with you. At least you haven't called me a bitter apostate yet. the rage with which you respond to prevailing secular, educated attitudes toward your beliefs just exposes you as an insecure mess when it comes to your religion. I feel sorry for you. Sorry, but 100% of people like Hertzberg feel the way he does about what you believe. Just look around, and get over it.

You are trying to make this about me but it isn't working. You have conceded that you are a racist and that bothers you -- that has nothing to do with religion or apostasy.

[tooblue]

You are trying to make this about me but it isn't working. You have conceded that you are a racist and that bothers you -- that has nothing to do with religion or apostasy.

Furthermore, Hertzberg is a bigot. His logic implies that visible minorities are not smart enough to make informed decisions.

[SeattleUte]

Furthermore, Hertzberg is a bigot. His logic implies that visible minorities are not smart enough to make informed decisions.

"Visible minorities." Is that something you made up? What a bunch of newspeak.

[tooblue]

"Visible minorities." Is that something you made up? What a bunch of newspeak.

Word-smithing again are we?

[SteelBlue]

You are probably twisted enough to think you are doing them a service by characterizing their views this way. You aren't. I hope you are wrong and I suspect you don't know what you're talking about.

Prior to the Prop. 8 battle I had assumed that minorities in general identified with the gay rights cause because they knew what it felt like to have to fight for civil rights. But, according to several (3) of my gay/lesbian co-workers the "black community" is notoriously opposed to gay rights and is probably the most difficult culture in which to live as an openly gay/lesbian person. When I expressed surprise at the percentage of blacks who had voted yes on 8 I was told that it was no surprise to anyone in the gay/lesbian community. I realize this is anecdotal, but I figure they know a lot more about it than I do.

[The Rambam]

Furthermore, Hertzberg is a bigot. His logic implies that visible minorities are not smart enough to make informed decisions.

Facts:

1. Minorities are disproportionately likely to have lower levels of education.

2. Lower levels of education are correlated with lower levels of tolerance towards homosexuality.

3. Lower levels of education are correlated with making political decisions after spending less time reading fewer materials on the political topic at hand.

So is it bigoted to say minorities are more likely to make less informed political decisions based to a greater extent on general anti-gay sentiments?