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I recently listened to a Hardcore History podcast on The Protestant Reformation and more specifically, on the Anabaptists in the town of Munster:
http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hh...mation-history
It's long, but he tells a great story and I think people would find some things really interesting. But I don't want to color your experience, so I'll spoiler alert the rest of this:
http://www.dancarlin.com/disp.php/hh...mation-history
It's long, but he tells a great story and I think people would find some things really interesting. But I don't want to color your experience, so I'll spoiler alert the rest of this:
Spoiler for For those who don't trust me enough to invest 4-5 hours in a podcast:
I've listened to a few of Carlin's podcast series (on Rome and on the Monuls), and one of his schticks is to try to get into the personalities of the people involved, and especially to try to understand them rather than judging them from a 21st century lens. He says early on that the listener will hear some really awful things done, often in the name of God, but to realize that we're of the same DNA, and that if we were raised in their cultural milieu, our actions would likely not be much different.
So with that, he gets into the story of the Reformation, and soon into the story of the Anabaptists, a fairly radical group that essentially combined a millenarianist outlook with a desire to return to the primitive church. They were called Anabaptists because of their rejection of infant baptism and insisting on converts being rebaptized.
Sound familiar? Keep reading.
They were initially persecuted, by both Catholics and Protestants, because they were seen as dangerous, and very literally, seditious. Atrocities went both ways, but they were more often victim than perpetrator. A group of Anabaptists eventually found a foothold in the town of Munster, Germany, a place that IIRC, was either the site of Christ's return or close to it. They took over the government there, founding a "Council of Elders" (I'm not making this up) to make decisions, that was made up largely of people loyal to their founding "prophet". Their prophet was an interesting combination of charisma and mysticism, and would often when asked a question, ask the questioner to hold on a moment while he consulted God, and then give his answer. He was literally seen as the mouthpiece of God, and directed things in the city according to the will of God. Disloyalty was not looked on particularly kindly, and the Council of Elders was very soon only composed of people that could be counted on to follow his edicts. Eventually, all Protestants and Catholics within the city walls were forced to either convert or leave the city. This led to the former controlling Bishop to lay siege outside the city walls, with the support of the Catholic church. This siege involves two unsuccessful attacks on the city and becomes much more prolonged than anyone expected.
The founding prophet has become immensely powerful through this series of events, leading many to suspect his motives. However, in the midst of the siege, an event occurs that Carlin calls proof that although he may have been deluded, he was not a charlatan. He takes a band of 30 men, referring to them as Gideon and his band, outside the city walls to attack the 3000 (I think) troops surrounding the city on what can only be called a suicide mission. He is quickly killed and there is expectation that this will be the end of the local movement. However, the second in command takes over, and is remarkably successful and consolidating the power and continuing the government.
At this point, Carlin takes a break to point out that more people than at any time in history have access to the Bible, due to the invention of the printing press and Luther's translation of the Bible into a German vernacular that everyday Germans could understand. Thus, everyone believes they are following the Bible as they understand it, but that the Anabaptists feel especially privileged because they have God's mouthpiece on Earth to confirm their reading. They're good people--they're generally moral, refrain from drunkenness, and seem to strive to follow Christ's basic teachings. But then he says, "you're about to see morality take a 180 degree turn".
Ok...up to this point, I can't help but remark on the similarities here--millenarianists, primitive church, baptism objections, prophet, taking over a city, council of elders, right up to people's modern view of Joseph Smith as obviously not a charlatan but still deluded. But I'm wondering in my head if I'm overthinking it and just seeing things through my Mormon lens. But...
The second "prophet" institutes...you guessed it...polygamy. And by commandment. There's even a story of him being caught having sex with a servant girl, although no mention of the wife catching him. There are a few objectors, naturally, but these are soon dispensed with in a failed coup within the town, and soon the Catholics and Protestants are leveling the same accusations involving lecherous leaders and underage women that would happen again 300 years later.
Honestly, an anti-Mormon could not put together a more effective parody of early Mormon history if he tried. You really have to listen to the whole thing to get the effect and I wonder if this already ruins the experience, but when Carlin makes his point about morality taking a 180 degree turn, I thought in my head "polygamy", and that's exactly what he said. I've listened to a lot of Carlin and he has no connection with or against the Church that I can tell. He makes mention a bit later, but is actually fairer to the Church than he could be by saying that there is a modern example of a Mormon offshoot sect that practices polygamy while emphasizing that the Mormon Church does not. He sums up his message about the dangers of tyranny, emphasizing that the problem here was not with religion, but with tyranny, and pointing out that Stalin did more harm with secular tyranny. The parallels, however, were still pretty jarring.
Take time to listen. It's long, but it's an interesting story (I've left out a lot), and worth the time on a long trip. Definitely not boring. I'm curious to hear some other takes.
So with that, he gets into the story of the Reformation, and soon into the story of the Anabaptists, a fairly radical group that essentially combined a millenarianist outlook with a desire to return to the primitive church. They were called Anabaptists because of their rejection of infant baptism and insisting on converts being rebaptized.
Sound familiar? Keep reading.
They were initially persecuted, by both Catholics and Protestants, because they were seen as dangerous, and very literally, seditious. Atrocities went both ways, but they were more often victim than perpetrator. A group of Anabaptists eventually found a foothold in the town of Munster, Germany, a place that IIRC, was either the site of Christ's return or close to it. They took over the government there, founding a "Council of Elders" (I'm not making this up) to make decisions, that was made up largely of people loyal to their founding "prophet". Their prophet was an interesting combination of charisma and mysticism, and would often when asked a question, ask the questioner to hold on a moment while he consulted God, and then give his answer. He was literally seen as the mouthpiece of God, and directed things in the city according to the will of God. Disloyalty was not looked on particularly kindly, and the Council of Elders was very soon only composed of people that could be counted on to follow his edicts. Eventually, all Protestants and Catholics within the city walls were forced to either convert or leave the city. This led to the former controlling Bishop to lay siege outside the city walls, with the support of the Catholic church. This siege involves two unsuccessful attacks on the city and becomes much more prolonged than anyone expected.
The founding prophet has become immensely powerful through this series of events, leading many to suspect his motives. However, in the midst of the siege, an event occurs that Carlin calls proof that although he may have been deluded, he was not a charlatan. He takes a band of 30 men, referring to them as Gideon and his band, outside the city walls to attack the 3000 (I think) troops surrounding the city on what can only be called a suicide mission. He is quickly killed and there is expectation that this will be the end of the local movement. However, the second in command takes over, and is remarkably successful and consolidating the power and continuing the government.
At this point, Carlin takes a break to point out that more people than at any time in history have access to the Bible, due to the invention of the printing press and Luther's translation of the Bible into a German vernacular that everyday Germans could understand. Thus, everyone believes they are following the Bible as they understand it, but that the Anabaptists feel especially privileged because they have God's mouthpiece on Earth to confirm their reading. They're good people--they're generally moral, refrain from drunkenness, and seem to strive to follow Christ's basic teachings. But then he says, "you're about to see morality take a 180 degree turn".
Ok...up to this point, I can't help but remark on the similarities here--millenarianists, primitive church, baptism objections, prophet, taking over a city, council of elders, right up to people's modern view of Joseph Smith as obviously not a charlatan but still deluded. But I'm wondering in my head if I'm overthinking it and just seeing things through my Mormon lens. But...
The second "prophet" institutes...you guessed it...polygamy. And by commandment. There's even a story of him being caught having sex with a servant girl, although no mention of the wife catching him. There are a few objectors, naturally, but these are soon dispensed with in a failed coup within the town, and soon the Catholics and Protestants are leveling the same accusations involving lecherous leaders and underage women that would happen again 300 years later.
Honestly, an anti-Mormon could not put together a more effective parody of early Mormon history if he tried. You really have to listen to the whole thing to get the effect and I wonder if this already ruins the experience, but when Carlin makes his point about morality taking a 180 degree turn, I thought in my head "polygamy", and that's exactly what he said. I've listened to a lot of Carlin and he has no connection with or against the Church that I can tell. He makes mention a bit later, but is actually fairer to the Church than he could be by saying that there is a modern example of a Mormon offshoot sect that practices polygamy while emphasizing that the Mormon Church does not. He sums up his message about the dangers of tyranny, emphasizing that the problem here was not with religion, but with tyranny, and pointing out that Stalin did more harm with secular tyranny. The parallels, however, were still pretty jarring.
Take time to listen. It's long, but it's an interesting story (I've left out a lot), and worth the time on a long trip. Definitely not boring. I'm curious to hear some other takes.
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