Elizabeth Smart & Chewing Gum

[ERCougar]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves on nineteenth century English? and don't they ever verify sources?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Please show me where someone taught it was better to die than be raped.

Here are a few.

“Loss of virtue is too great a price to pay even for the preservation of ones life - better dead clean, than alive unclean. Many is faithful the Latter-day Saint parent who has sent a son or a daughter on a mission or otherwise out into the world with the direction: ‘I would rather have you come back in a pine box with your virtue than return alive without it.’”–Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine (all editions), page 124.

” . . . Your virtue is worth more than your life. Please young folk, preserve your virtue even if you lose your lives. Do not tamper with sin . . . do not permit yourselves to be led into temptation.”–President David O. McKay, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

“…There is no true Latter-day Saint who would not rather bury a son or daughter than to have him or her lose his or her chastity — realizing that chastity is of more value than anything else in all the world.”–Heber J. Grant, quoted in THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS by Spencer W. Kimball

“Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a moe favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no Voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.”–Spencer W. Kimball, THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS

“The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often, the victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help assess your responsibility so that, if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure.” - Apostle Richard G. Scott “Healing the Tragic Scars of Abuse,” General Conference, Ensign, May 1992

“Of course, a mature person who willingly consents to sexual relations must share responsibility for the act, even though the other participant was the aggressor. Persons who consciously invite sexual advances also have a share of responsibility for the behavior that follows. But persons who are truly forced into sexual relations are victims and are not guilty of any sexual sin.” - First Presidency Letter to General Authorities, Regional Representatives, and other priesthood leadership, 7 Feb. 1985

[Indy Coug]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves? and don't they ever verify sources?

WTF do you get that 'rape victims need to educate themselves'? As for what words meant back in the day, you can see the Standard Works are replete with footnotes trying to assist us to with that very thing.

[Jeff Lebowski]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves on nineteenth century English? and don't they ever verify sources?

No kidding. It's absurd that these young girls don't know the etymology of these words. Absurd!.

We had a chat around the dinner table tonight and my teenage daughter has heard both the chewed gum and licked cupcake analogies in YW. Thankfully, she thinks both are BS.

[Indy Coug]

No kidding. It's absurd that these young girls don't know the etymology of these words. Absurd!.

[CardiacCoug]

He's clearly talking about more than just rape.

What are you getting at here?

So if it's not just rape then it makes sense that God will prompt abuse victims that they in fact bear some responsibility for being abused?

[UVACoug]

And that matters because?

It matters because CardiacCoug claimed he was talking about rape victims.

[UVACoug]

lol.
I love how we're getting into historical definitions of virtue and source checking.
stupid rape victims. why can't they educate themselves on nineteenth century English? and don't they ever verify sources?

Who said anything about rape victims? I am talking about intellectually superior people here who don't seem to be able to understand modern english (note that the CURRENT dictionary definition of "virtue" and "chastity" have a secondary meaning that make them synonymous to "virginity"). The only way you can read Moroni 9:9 and think he is saying that rape victims are less good than non-rape victims is if you are ignorant of the secondary meaning of those words ... or you have an agenda.

[Pheidippides]

It matters because CardiacCoug claimed he was talking about rape victims.

(A) the quote would include rape victims whether or not it included abuse victims. This is the sort of thing you see on the LSAT. Venn diagrams, all that.

(B) ignoring A, does that somehow make the statement any less deplorable?

[All-American]

Here are a few.

I don't think a single one of those quotes support the position. In fact, quite a few support the opposite.

[UVACoug]

Here are a few.

While I don't agree with those quotes, it is not nearly the same things as the suggestion that rape victims become unworthy or unclean or bad or sinners because they were raped. It's not hard to understand the point they are trying to make ... even if you disagree with it. There is no need to exaggerate and sensationalize it.

I agree 100% with Elizabeth Smart that the Church (and the culture in general) needs to do a better job at teaching women at a young age that they should not be ashamed of being raped. I have a sister that was raped and she had a very difficult time overcoming it. There are several things like this that the Church can be more clear on. That doesn't excuse claiming that church leaders teach something that they clearly don't teach.

[UVACoug]

No kidding. It's absurd that these young girls don't know the etymology of these words. Absurd!.

We had a chat around the dinner table tonight and my teenage daughter has heard both the chewed gum and licked cupcake analogies in YW. Thankfully, she thinks both are BS.

I didn't realize that you were all rape victims. I thought I was talking to people that claim to be smarter than the average Mormon.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think a single one of those quotes support the position. In fact, quite a few support the opposite.

Seriously? This is what UVACoug asked:

Please show me where someone taught it was better to die than be raped.

You honestly don't think ANY of those quotes support the idea that it is better to die than to submit to rape? What am I missing?

[UVACoug]

What are you getting at here?

So if it's not just rape then it makes sense that God will prompt abuse victims that they in fact bear some responsibility for being abused?

I'm getting at the point that you misrepresented what he said (shocking). I am not sure what exactly he means, but when read in context ... it sounds like he is talking about consenting to participating in sexual sin when you are not coerced to do so. I actually don't really think that is too hard to understand. Where you got that he was talking about being raped is beyond me.

[CardiacCoug]

I don't think a single one of those quotes support the position. In fact, quite a few support the opposite.