Elizabeth Smart & Chewing Gum

[Eddie]

You don't have to be a needle neck to know what Moroni is saying.

But do you have to not be a needle neck to know what he is meaning?

[Non Sequitur]

If you take the position that the meaning of words remain perpetually static and that translated words have perfect one-to-one mappings from one language to another....

Dang. I could have gone on my mission a year earlier if I had simply pointed out to my Bishop that the meaning of the word chastity was not perpetually static.

[Blueintheface]

If you take the position that the meaning of words remain perpetually static and that translated words have perfect one-to-one mappings from one language to another....

And over the course of the past 2 centuries many in the Mormon culture have taken those static words and bastardized them. My sister was raped as a juvenile and, dissatisified by the failure to receive ecclesiastical absolution, attempted suicide. She didn't cite this scripture specfically but she referenced the published material available at the time (~20 yrs ago) and its failure to capture those involuntairly deflowered. The culture has changed but not fast enough for many.

[ERCougar]

That's how I always read it too.

Well, good then! If a middle aged Mormon man isn't troubled by the passage, nothing to worry about here!

[Eddie]

And over the course of the past 2 centuries many in the Mormon culture have taken those static words and bastardized them. My sister was raped as a juvenile and, dissatisified by the failure to receive ecclesiastical absolution, attempted suicide. She didn't cite this scripture specfically but she referenced the published material available at the time (~20 yrs ago) and its failure to capture those involuntairly deflowered. The culture has changed but not fast enough for many.

It makes me really sad to read that. I know that society has not always been kind to rape victims (I don't think this is just mormon culture) and I hope that things continue to improve.

Not commenting specifically on Elizabeth Smart or your sister - it is interesting to me to consider what the mindset of a child (or youth) has on their interpretation. It seems like most kids are pretty egocentric. The world revolves around them and they take credit or blame for much more than they should. I used to work with children in foster care fairly regularly, and it was always sad to me to see the number of children who thought that it was their fault that they were removed from their parents; either believing that something they did made them deserving of abuse or even that they did something wrong that directly caused them to be removed from their parents. And I wonder what role brain development and juvenile thought processes plays in all of this when it comes to victims assigning blame.

[Indy Coug]

Well, good then! If a middle aged Mormon man isn't troubled by the passage, nothing to worry about here!

As long as we all acknowledge there is only one possible way to interpret what that scripture means. As you are a middle aged Mormon mann, in the future I will look to you for answers on 19th Century idioms/colloquialisms, particularly as they pertain to translations from ancient texts. Thanks in advance.

[Jeff Lebowski]

As long as we all acknowledge there is only one possible way to interpret what that scripture means. In the future I will look to you for answers on 19th Century idioms/colloquialisms, particularly as they pertain to translations from ancient texts. Thanks in advance.

As usual, you have trotted out a red herring to make your dismissive assessment. What difference does it make if the wording is based on 19th century idioms/colloquialisms? That's not the point. The way it is written portrays a false and harmful idea. It would be nice to see that acknowledged and addressed somehow.

[ERCougar]

As long as we all acknowledge there is only one possible way to interpret what that scripture means. As you are a middle aged Mormon mann, in the future I will look to you for answers on 19th Century idioms/colloquialisms, particularly as they pertain to translations from ancient texts. Thanks in advance.

I guess I'm not sure how either 19th century idioms/colloquialisms or your reading of them are the least bit relevant when discussing how teenage girls, and in particular victims of sexual abuse, are interpreting passages about rape and the subsequent loss of "virtue and chastity".

But you're welcome!

[Non Sequitur]

As long as we all acknowledge there is only one possible way to interpret what that scripture means. As you are a middle aged Mormon mann, in the future I will look to you for answers on 19th Century idioms/colloquialisms, particularly as they pertain to translations from ancient texts. Thanks in advance.

"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained..." That's Heber J. Grant. Not translated. Not ancient text.

When young women are taught that it is better to die defending themselves against rape than to surrender their virtue, how should they interpret that? This isn't about parsing the meanings of ancient text...it's about the message that's being taught about those ancient texts.

[Indy Coug]

As usual, you have trotted out a red herring to make your dismissive assessment. What difference does it make if the wording is based on 19th century idioms/colloquialisms? That's not the point. The way it is written portrays a false and harmful idea. It would be nice to see that acknowledged and addressed somehow.

The friggin' point is that perhaps if we took the time to look into this issue maybe we collectively come away with a different understanding of what the meaning/intent of the scripture was, rather than what it is. Then again, maybe we don't. I don't see what the problem is with bringing up the point that subsequent changes in the English leads us to read this differently now than it was understood back then.

"The way it is written" is the way it was written over 180 years ago. There very well could have been absolutely nothing wrong with the way it was written then, relative to our enlightened 21st century sensibilities. I could have written in the 1950s that I had a "gay old time" with a bunch of my male friends. The way it was written then was perfectly fine and would not have landed me in a church court.

I'm not the one being dismissive here; you and ERCougar are filling the role very nicely.

[Indy Coug]

"Also far-reaching is the effect of loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained..." That's Heber J. Grant. Not translated. Not ancient text.

When young women are taught that it is better to die defending themselves against rape than to surrender their virtue, how should they interpret that? This isn't about parsing the meanings of ancient text...it's about the message that's being taught about those ancient texts.

Do you think we understand the word "chastity" the same way now as it was understood back during Heber J Grant's day? Maybe we do, but maybe we don't.

By the way, I don't think our General Authorities necessarily have this right either, so don't take this as a "defense" of anyone. I'm merely raising the question of whether or not Moroni 9:9 is correctly understood given the natural shifts in our usage and understanding of words. If no one is interested in at least mulling over the point I'm trying to make, fine. I'll leave you to your knee-jerking echo chamber.

The fact that Eddie and I understood Moroni 9:9 differently than others should at least open the possibility that the meaning of that scripture is not so cut-and-dried that we can use it as a concrete basis to tie it to other pronouncements the General Authorities have made.

[Blueintheface]

It makes me really sad to read that. I know that society has not always been kind to rape victims (I don't think this is just mormon culture) and I hope that things continue to improve.

Not commenting specifically on Elizabeth Smart or your sister - it is interesting to me to consider what the mindset of a child (or youth) has on their interpretation. It seems like most kids are pretty egocentric. The world revolves around them and they take credit or blame for much more than they should. I used to work with children in foster care fairly regularly, and it was always sad to me to see the number of children who thought that it was their fault that they were removed from their parents; either believing that something they did made them deserving of abuse or even that they did something wrong that directly caused them to be removed from their parents. And I wonder what role brain development and juvenile thought processes plays in all of this when it comes to victims assigning blame.

I'm sure part of my sister's issue was as you say, egocentric interpretation, as I remember many of her leaders at the time trying to at least comfort her if nothing else. It was a tragic event though but fortunately for her she had loving and understanding parents that helped her work through it. Those foster kids you mention don't have that luxory which is just awful. Though I've never worked closely with foster kids, I've known several adults still scarred by their foster family experiences. There are wonderful exceptions but all too often it's the lowest form of tax avoidance for people with no business raising children. Very sad.

[PaloAltoCougar]

Maybe one or more of the resident needlenecks could elucidate on possible changes to the popular meaning of "virtue" between circa 1830 and 2013. We could have a gay old time learning about our mother tongue.

Well, flip, I'm no needleneck, but I'm always happy to step into the fray. I used Webster's 1828 edition when teaching the BoM course of study to help clarify the word choices Joseph Smith used in producing the BoM. Here's the definition of virtue from that edition. The intro notes that the root of virtue is "worth", but then the first two definitions are:

1. Strength; that substance or quality of physical bodies, by which they act and produce effects on other bodies. In this literal and proper sense, we speak of the virtue or virtues of plants in medicine, and the virtues of drugs. In decoctions, the virtues of plants are extracted. By long standing in the open air, the virtues are lost.

2. Bravery valor. This was the predominant signification of virtus among the Romans.

Putting the best gloss on Mormon 9:9, one can see how horrifically degrading acts committed on a young woman would take away her strength, her ability to affect others and, at least eventually, diminish her bravery/valor. Certainly that happened to Elizabeth Smart during her confinement. That said, nowadays it's essential that comments like SWK's and others, that one is better off dead than losing one's virtue, or that one's "worth" is diminished by such acts, be corrected.

This reminds me that while in the Salt Lake Mission Home in 1971 for my first week of missionary training (English speaking missionaries went from there straight to the mission field, others of us headed to the LTM), Loren C. Dunn said very solemnly, "It would be better for you, and your mother would certainly strongly prefer, that you come home from your mission in a pine box than to come home because of unconfessed or future sexual transgressions." A very close friend, who is now serving as an MP overseas, told me, "Hey, I really don't think my mom would prefer the pine box thing. She'd be very disappointed, but I really think she'd prefer a living son to a corpse." And so should we.

[Solon]

Maybe one or more of the resident needlenecks could elucidate on possible changes to the popular meaning of "virtue" between circa 1830 and 2013. We could have a gay old time learning about our mother tongue.

In 1830, I believe the Victorian-era's transformation of the word "virtue" into "chastity" was early, and maybe not even really underway quite yet. Traditionally, chastity was considered a virtue in the Catholic tradition (part of the Virtue of Temperance), but not the same thing as virtue itself.

"Virtue," before the Victorian era, had a much broader meaning of valor, overall excellence, moral perfection.
It's derived from the Latin word "vir", which means "man." "manliness" is pretty different from chastity.

How this relates to Moroni 9.9 is beyond me.

I never gave it a lot of thought, never had the actual chewed gum/licked cupcake lesson, but definitely would have felt the same as Elizabeth Smart in her situation based on how chastity was presented to me growing up. That's because I got the Kimball quote about one being better off dying than having their virtue taken from them in a rape.

If it makes you feel any better, the "death before dishonor" ideal for women is an old one. (It doesn't make me feel any better.)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/livy-rape.asp

[Indy Coug]

Well, flip, I'm no needleneck, but I'm always happy to step into the fray. I used Webster's 1828 edition when teaching the BoM course of study to help clarify the word choices Joseph Smith used in producing the BoM. Here's the definition of virtue from that edition. The intro notes that the root of virtue is "worth", but then the first two definitions are:

1. Strength; that substance or quality of physical bodies, by which they act and produce effects on other bodies. In this literal and proper sense, we speak of the virtue or virtues of plants in medicine, and the virtues of drugs. In decoctions, the virtues of plants are extracted. By long standing in the open air, the virtues are lost.

2. Bravery valor. This was the predominant signification of virtus among the Romans.

Putting the best gloss on Mormon 9:9, one can see how horrifically degrading acts committed on a young woman would take away her strength, her ability to affect others and, at least eventually, diminish her bravery/valor. Certainly that happened to Elizabeth Smart during her confinement. That said, nowadays it's essential that comments like SWK's and others, that one is better off dead than losing one's virtue, or that one's "worth" is diminished by such acts, be corrected.

This reminds me that while in the Salt Lake Mission Home in 1971 for my first week of missionary training (English speaking missionaries went from there straight to the mission field, others of us headed to the LTM), Loren C. Dunn said very solemnly, "It would be better for you, and your mother would certainly strongly prefer, that you come home from your mission in a pine box than to come home because of unconfessed or future sexual transgressions." A very close friend, who is now serving as an MP overseas, told me, "Hey, I really don't think my mom would prefer the pine box thing. She'd be very disappointed, but I really think she'd prefer a living son to a corpse." And so should we.

In 1830, I believe the Victorian-era's transformation of the word "virtue" into "chastity" was early, and maybe not even really underway quite yet. Traditionally, chastity was considered a virtue in the Catholic tradition (part of the Virtue of Temperance), but not the same thing as virtue itself.

"Virtue," before the Victorian era, had a much broader meaning of valor, overall excellence, moral perfection.
It's derived from the Latin word "vir", which means "man." "manliness" is pretty different from chastity.

How this relates to Moroni 9.9 is beyond me.



If it makes you feel any better, the "death before dishonor" ideal for women is an old one. (It doesn't make me feel any better.)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/livy-rape.asp

Excellent. Thanks for the replies.