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  • Prophecy, Revelation Deficits, and Moral Exhortations

    A disclaimer. I'm a recommend-carrying, uber active member of the church. I am happy to sustain Thomas S. Monson and all the rest as prophets, seers, and revelators. But I'm pretty clear-eyed about things as well. And I don't think one needs to be a SeattleUte-style Son of Perdition to recognize that the workings of the bureaucratic church are as much a function of institutional inertia as inspiration. This is the kind of thing we liberals and moderates acknowledge when we're honest with ourselves and, in my less bleak moments, I don't think it's necessarily anything to be lamented. We have pretty much followed Weber's description of how charismatic leadership is transformed into faceless bureaucracy to a T. That's just the nature of the beast.

    Do the FP and Q12 exercise their keys in the kinds of ways that we, as eager 19-year old missionaries once led our investigators to believe? I think of the things that I simply assumed and unhesitatingly taught--that the Prophet speaks with the Lord face to face; that revelation is initiated by the Lord and is ubiquitous and ongoing; that more scripture will soon come forth; that the Second Coming is an imminent historical event; etc. etc.--and I shudder to think how I naive I was. Not that any of those claims are simply false, per se. It's just that in every case, things are more complicated than I had once thought.

    I can't help wonder as well if there isn't a sense of disappointment or disillusion even at the top. I imagine the GAs' lives are filled with administrative minutiae, attending meetings, calling leaders, putting out the many fires that spring up on a daily basis in an organization as large and complex as the church. Are they also aware of this kind of deficit of clear, distinct, unequivocal revelation that is not primarily administrative in character? Are they aware of the kind of yearning of all members of the church--conservatives, moderates, and liberals alike--to feel that the heavens are still open and that new revelations might come forth? That many members hang on their every word at General Conference, eager to seize on anything that would remotely hint at a form of revelation that goes beyond the familiar exhortations to greater personal righteousness? Not that those aren't needed, of course.

    I can't help but wonder if the Church's propensity to wander into the US culture wars--say, from the 1970s ERA movement to the present--is not a consequence of our leaders' own awareness that real, honest-to-god revelation is rare indeed. In the absence of dramatic new revelation, perhaps they felt a need to to assure church members that they do speak with divine authority (not as the scribes, as it were) by speaking clearly and forthrightly on the moral issues of the day (which, of course, tend to look very much like the "moral issues of the day" as defined by conservative and evangelical American Christians and the Moral Majority, but that's a subject for another post). My questions, in brief, are these:

    (1) Should the Church's forceful engagement in social issues from the 70s onward be construed as a way of speaking "prophetically" while sidestepping any awkward claim to having actually received fresh revelation?

    (2) Does the Church's recent (let's say, post-Prop 8), ever-so-gentle backpedalling on social issues hint that the time when evidence of prophetic leadership was equated with waging the cultural wars is drawing to a close?
    Last edited by Harry Tic; 02-10-2013, 07:09 AM.
    Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
    --William Blake, via Shpongle

  • #2
    I think you have seen a change since Prop 8 (all good in my opinion). I have no inside knowledge, but I don't think all of the FP and Q12 or all in agreement on these issues. As you said you saw a softening of the edges after 2008. I took the BKP 2010 address as a shot over the bow and he was not in agreement with some of the walk back.

    Regardless of what you think whether gay people should be able to marry, I and many others were disturbed by the ugliness, homophobia, and outright bigotry of many members. You are seeing the same thing now with the possible BSA policy change. I think many in the leadership observed the same thing and what the culture has created. That is why they have totally reversed on many of their past stances and statements (see mormonandgays.org). I am interested to see how they address this in April at conference before the BSA vote in May. The change in policy would be in line with church policy. I don't think most members even have any idea what the church is saying on the website. If the church is serious you will see it addressed in conference because that is when members are listening.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
      A disclaimer. I'm a recommend-carrying, uber active member of the church. I am happy to sustain Thomas S. Monson and all the rest of the gang as prophets, seers, and revelators. But I'm pretty clear-eyed about things as well. And I don't think one needs to be a SeattleUte-style Son of Perdition to recognize that the workings of the bureaucratic church are as much a function of institutional inertia as inspiration. This is the kind of thing we liberals and moderates acknowledge when we're honest with ourselves and, in my less bleak moments, I don't think it's necessarily anything to be lamented. We have pretty much followed Weber's description of how charismatic leadership is transformed into faceless bureaucracy to a T. That's just the nature of the beast.

      Do the FP and Q12 exercise their keys in the kinds of ways that we, as eager 19-year old missionaries once led our investigators to believe? I think of the things that I simply assumed and unhesitatingly taught--that the Prophet speaks with the Lord face to face; that revelation is initiated by the Lord and is ubiquitous and ongoing; that more scripture will soon come forth; that the Second Coming is an imminent historical event; etc. etc.--and I shudder to think how I naive I was. Not that any of those claims are simply false, per se. It's just that in every case, things are more complicated than I had once thought.

      I can't help wonder as well if there isn't a sense of disappointment or disillusion even at the top. I imagine the GAs' lives are filled with administrative minutiae, attending meetings, calling leaders, putting out the many fires that spring up on a daily basis in an organization as large and complex as the church. Are they also aware of this kind of deficit of clear, distinct, unequivocal revelation that is not primarily administrative in character? Are they aware of the kind of yearning of all members of the church--conservatives, moderates, and liberals alike--to feel that the heavens are still open and that new revelations might come forth? That many members hang on their every word at General Conference, eager to seize on anything that would remotely hint at a form of revelation that goes beyond the familiar exhortations to greater personal righteousness? Not that those aren't needed, of course.

      I can't help but wonder if the Church's propensity to wander into the US culture wars--say, from the 1970s ERA movement to the present--is not a consequence of our leaders' own awareness that real, honest-to-god revelation is rare indeed. In the absence of dramatic new revelation, perhaps they felt a need to to assure church members that they do speak with divine authority (not as the scribes, as it were) by speaking clearly and forthrightly on the moral issues of the day (which, of course, tend to look very much like the "moral issues of the day" as defined by conservative and evangelical American Christians and the Moral Majority, but that's a subject for another post). My questions, in brief, are these:

      (1) Should the Church's forceful engagement in social issues from the 70s onward be construed as a way of speaking "prophetically" while sidestepping any awkward claim to having actually received fresh revelation?

      (2) Does the Church's recent (let's say, post-Prop 8), ever-so-gentle backpedalling on social issues hint that the time when evidence of prophetic leadership was equated with waging the cultural wars is drawing to a close?
      I'll ignore your numbered questions and go to your prior, unnumbered one:

      Doubtful. I taught "porque no hará nada Jehová el Señor, sin que revele su secreto a sus siervos los profetas." (King James: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.)

      Looking back on the passage, I'm a little surprised at the singular form of "secret." I definitely shared that passage in the context of the need for on-going prophetic communication - secrets, plural.

      And if Jehovah is constantly sharing secrets with his servants, the prophets, then the prophets sure have been tight-lipped about the secrets over the last hundred years. Jehovah can't help but share, while the prophets are constantly responding, "yeah, that does sound pretty important, but these heathens are not ready for it, yet."
      "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
      - Goatnapper'96

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Bruiserstone View Post
        I think you have seen a change since Prop 8 (all good in my opinion). I have no inside knowledge, but I don't think all of the FP and Q12 or all in agreement on these issues. As you said you saw a softening of the edges after 2008. I took the BKP 2010 address as a shot over the bow and he was not in agreement with some of the walk back.
        I suspect that this is right on. These are hard issues to sort out and it would be unsurprising that there would be some lively disagreement in the Q12 on any issues relating to sexuality. What I found fascinating about the BKP walkback--and it really did not receive the careful attention it deserved--was that it happened at all. This, coming from the "grizzly bear" who couldn't be "stage-managed" as one of his colleagues once put it, and who, as Pres of the Q12, suffered the humiliation (there's no other way to honestly think of it) of walking back his address in a very public way. Makes you wonder what pressures were exerted to keep the old grizzly in line. Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

        It kind of reminds me of that Facebook group, quite popular right after conference, "I Support BKP." I found myself wondering if that meant that one supported BKP take 1 Or BKP take 2. For those that took it to mean BKP take 1, does that mean that they think that he was muzzled by renegade forces within the FP and Q12? Interesting.
        Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
        --William Blake, via Shpongle

        Comment


        • #5
          A lot of the "revelation" in the early periods of the church came at the request or in response to actions of everyday members. The D&C is full of revelations of people asking questions of Joseph Smith. The RS was started by two women that were making shirts for temple workers (and subsequently led the woman's suffrage movement in Utah). The Primary had a similar founding. Neither organization were revealed to the prophet and then implemented...instead they were started (probably through inspiration) to members and then later adopted by the church.

          Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately), questions sent to the prophet are returned to local leaders. I guess people are to rely on personal revelation more, which is probably a good thing. It's what gives me hope that certain things in the church will change and I tend to try and steer things in that direction. I deemphasize scouts and emphasize DTG. I don't teach homophobia, or avoiding interracial marriage, or social conservatism and instead teach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

          I guess my short answer is that I believe the prophet does and will receive revelation, but I think a lot of the time it starts from below him...not above.
          "Discipleship is not a spectator sport. We cannot expect to experience the blessing of faith by standing inactive on the sidelines any more than we can experience the benefits of health by sitting on a sofa watching sporting events on television and giving advice to the athletes. And yet for some, “spectator discipleship” is a preferred if not primary way of worshipping." -Pres. Uchtdorf

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Pelado View Post
            I taught "porque no hará nada Jehová el Señor, sin que revele su secreto a sus siervos los profetas." (King James: Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.)

            Looking back on the passage, I'm a little surprised at the singular form of "secret." I definitely shared that passage in the context of the need for on-going prophetic communication - secrets, plural.
            There are smarter people on this board than me, but a quick check of the Hebrew here suggests that "secret" is a slightly odd translation. The root word means something like that which is transmitted in an intimate, personal council. So, it could be something like "God will do nothing without conferring in intimate counsel with his prophets or spokesmen."
            Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
            --William Blake, via Shpongle

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
              There are smarter people on this board than me,
              Don't be so sure.

              but a quick check of the Hebrew here suggests that "secret" is a slightly odd translation. The root word means something like that which is transmitted in an intimate, personal council. So, it could be something like "God will do nothing without conferring in intimate counsel with his prophets or spokesmen."
              Even so, when was the last time a general authority of the church, without quoting someone or something else, said "Thus sayeth the Lord..."?
              "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
              - Goatnapper'96

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Harry Tic View Post
                I suspect that this is right on. These are hard issues to sort out and it would be unsurprising that there would be some lively disagreement in the Q12 on any issues relating to sexuality. What I found fascinating about the BKP walkback--and it really did not receive the careful attention it deserved--was that it happened at all. This, coming from the "grizzly bear" who couldn't be "stage-managed" as one of his colleagues once put it, and who, as Pres of the Q12, suffered the humiliation (there's no other way to honestly think of it) of walking back his address in a very public way. Makes you wonder what pressures were exerted to keep the old grizzly in line. Oh, to be a fly on the wall.

                It kind of reminds me of that Facebook group, quite popular right after conference, "I Support BKP." I found myself wondering if that meant that one supported BKP take 1 Or BKP take 2. For those that took it to mean BKP take 1, does that mean that they think that he was muzzled by renegade forces within the FP and Q12? Interesting.
                I thought the revamping/censoring/editing (whatever you choose to call it) was remarkable. I too would have loved to listen to the debate.

                I remember that FB group. I can assure you it was in support of Take 1. To this day I hear people quoting the original comments and they always seem a little shocked to learn that their favorite part of the talk never made it to print in the Ensign.
                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                Comment


                • #9
                  Harry has raised some interesting questions/points that will probably generate many more responses, or at least thought, once people return to work and have time to spend on the board. My view of how the brethren interact with the divine has certainly changed over the past forty years, and I shared Harry's mission naivete. On another tangential point, I was pleased with the BKP edits, much more so than I was with the last post-presentation rewrite of which I was aware, that of Elder Poelman's.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                    Harry has raised some interesting questions/points that will probably generate many more responses, or at least thought, once people return to work and have time to spend on the board. My view of how the brethren interact with the divine has certainly changed over the past forty years, and I shared Harry's mission naivete. On another tangential point, I was pleased with the BKP edits, much more so than I was with the last post-presentation rewrite of which I was aware, that of Elder Poelman's.
                    Background info?
                    "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                    - Goatnapper'96

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Pelado View Post
                      Background info?
                      Here's a good summary. I preferred the original version, but Elder Poelman, who passed away just over a year ago, was a good soldier and made the changes. I was skeptical, and still am, that concerns about how the fundamentalists would interpret the talk was the primary motivator for the changes. I was also amused that when they had him retape the talk for future broadcasts, they inserted a cough track to create the impression the talk was being given in front of a full tabernacle.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                        Here's a good summary. I preferred the original version, but Elder Poelman, who passed away just over a year ago, was a good soldier and made the changes. I was skeptical, and still am, that concerns about how the fundamentalists would interpret the talk was the primary motivator for the changes. I was also amused that when they had him retape the talk for future broadcasts, they inserted a cough track to create the impression the talk was being given in front of a full tabernacle.
                        Elder Poelman's talk was the only other one that I'm aware of that was substantially modified after being delivered in conference (the cough track was priceless!). Come to think of it, maybe this is a model we would do well to emulate on the ward level. Whenever the bishopric finds someone going off on a tangent or disapproves of a talk for whatever reason, they should have the ward member rewrite the talk and do it again the next week.
                        Nothing lasts, but nothing is lost.
                        --William Blake, via Shpongle

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by PaloAltoCougar View Post
                          Here's a good summary. I preferred the original version, but Elder Poelman, who passed away just over a year ago, was a good soldier and made the changes. I was skeptical, and still am, that concerns about how the fundamentalists would interpret the talk was the primary motivator for the changes. I was also amused that when they had him retape the talk for future broadcasts, they inserted a cough track to create the impression the talk was being given in front of a full tabernacle.
                          That is messed up. Some of the items that were extracted and/or severely modified from his original address:

                          Sometimes traditions, customs, social practices and personal preferences of individual Church members may, through repeated or common usage be misconstrued as Church procedures or policies. Occasionally, such traditions, customs and practices may even be regarded by some as eternal gospel principles. Under such circumstances those who do not conform to these cultural standards may mistakenly be regarded as unorthodox or even unworthy.
                          I can't think of any traditions, customs, practices, or preferences that are misconstrued as Church procedures and policies...

                          http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?t=14895

                          http://www.cougarstadium.com/showthread.php?t=65044


                          The conformity we require should be according to God’s standards. The orthodoxy upon which we insist must be founded in fundamental principles and eternal law, including free agency and the divine uniqueness of the individual. It is important therefore to know the difference between eternal gospel principles which are unchanging, universally applicable and cultural norms which may vary with time and circumstance.

                          The source of this perspective is found in the scriptures and may appear to be presented in a rather unorganized and untidy format. The Lord could have presented the gospel to us in a manual, systematically organized by subject, perhaps using examples and illustrations. However the eternal principles and divine laws of God are revealed to us through accounts of individual lives in a variety of circumstances and conditions.


                          Every Church member has not only the opportunity, right and privilege to receive a personal witness regarding gospel principles and Church practices, but has the need and obligation to obtain such assurance by exercising his free agency, thereby fulfilling one purpose of his mortal probation.
                          https://www.sunstonemagazine.com/wp-.../079-50-53.pdf
                          "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                          - Goatnapper'96

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Moliere View Post
                            A lot of the "revelation" in the early periods of the church came at the request or in response to actions of everyday members. The D&C is full of revelations of people asking questions of Joseph Smith. The RS was started by two women that were making shirts for temple workers (and subsequently led the woman's suffrage movement in Utah). The Primary had a similar founding. Neither organization were revealed to the prophet and then implemented...instead they were started (probably through inspiration) to members and then later adopted by the church.
                            And FHE on Mondays began the same time Monday Night Football was started. That is why we watch it faithfully as a family.
                            "If there is one thing I am, it's always right." -Ted Nugent.
                            "I honestly believe saying someone is a smart lawyer is damning with faint praise. The smartest people become engineers and scientists." -SU.
                            "Yet I still see wisdom in that which Uncle Ted posts." -creek.
                            GIVE 'EM HELL, BRIGHAM!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pelado View Post
                              Background info?
                              A great (and some would say irreverent) podcast on the Poelman talk.

                              http://mormonexpression.com/2011/01/...nference-talk/

                              Comment

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