Coffee is good for you

[Northwestcoug]

Honestly, do most mormons live the WOW in their youth? I am a pretty devout LDS individual and was raised by very active parents. All my brothers served missions and only one of the 5 boys is not a current temple recommend holder.

Saying that, I know for a fact that only one of the 5 boys did not break the WOW repeatedly in their youth. Perhaps it is different for those raised where being LDS is a prominent majority. But most of the mormon kids I knew and ran around with in HS imbibed, had coffee and probably toked a little ganja on occassion. We were not dopeheads or those struggling to be successful. Just what I think were relatively normal teenagers trying to figure out who we were. Most went onto college and post-graduate education and are doing relatively well. I find it odd that somebody's first encounter with coffee would be as an adult.

I certainly played loose with the WOW when I was a teenager, but I had never drank coffee. What was the point?

The crowd I ran around with drank mainly alcohol. We were looking to get buzzed, not hyped. But I can see how others would drink it as teenagers.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't think there is any underlying premise about health.

You can't be serious.

[ERCougar]

I would disagree with you. I think the WOW is advice to live healthily. At least as I read it. Now as far as the specific dos and don'ts as it evolved that is something I am pretty convinced the mormon church cares about more than God, but I still maintain it is a good way to live.

I think you're giving it too much credit.

We had this discussion because my wife said she had this fantastic lesson on the Word of Wisdom in RS where they focused on healthy living rather than the specifics of the WOW. My answer was that "that's not the Word of Wisdom, that's a lesson on health." Interesting that the best way to really get into a good discussion of health is to get away from the specifics of the WOW. The only health-related advice of Section 89 is wrong. Lol.

[ERCougar]

You can't be serious.

Completely.

One specific thing besides no tobacco (which every non-WOW adherent knows as well) found in the WOW that leads to better health? Or even a general principle?

[RC Vikings]

I AM curious to see if the health benefits to coffee still stand up after everyone adds what they need to to make it drinkable.

I always found that about five or six beers during the evening made coffee very drinkable at about 2 am.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Completely.

One specific thing besides no tobacco (which every non-WOW adherent knows as well) found in the WOW that leads to better health? Or even a general principle?

I agree that some of the WoW is wrong when it comes to health. But this is what you said:

I don't think there is any underlying premise about health.

Unless I don't understand the correct meaning of "premise", I think you are wrong. The WoW has always been promoted as a health code. "Run and not be weary"? "Walk and not faint"?

[ERCougar]

I agree that some of the WoW is wrong when it comes to health. But this is what you said:



Unless I don't understand the correct meaning of "premise", I think you are wrong. The WoW has always been promoted as a health code. "Run and not be weary"? "Walk and not faint"?

Sure, that's the promise (or at least one of them--not even listed as the first promise). But there's nothing therein that actually leads to the promise.

I guess there's a semantic argument might have, but that's not very interesting, and doesn't take away from the point that the WOW as presently and previously taught has little or nothing to do with good health. I agree (and actually posted earlier in the threat) that we claim it does, but we need to stop that, because it doesn't.

[Mrs. Funk]

I recently got in a discussion about the WoW in Facebook on the fMh group. At one point, a couple of sociologists and an anthropologist piped up about the WoW as a form of tribalism or a method of creating a group identity separate from the mainstream. They spoke of the Jews not eating particular meats, keeping themselves separate from the other peoples, &c.

I found the anthropologist's comments particularly interesting. She spoke about using arbitrary yardsticks like whether or not you eat pork as a way to identify those who are "in" versus those who are "out," and that if you can reinforce those identities strongly enough the group will start governing itself in terms of who is "in" versus who is "out."

I see this all the time with the bright line rules associated with the LDS church. It's comparatively easy to perfectly live the Word of Wisdom. It's much easier than, for example, being scrupulously honest or Christ-like in all your dealings. For some reason, many people cling to the bright line rules as the sole indicator of a person's spiritual worthiness. It's not just the Word of Wisdom, although it's the most obvious example. One of my Mia Maids called her friend out for personal righteousness when the friend *gasp* showed a bit of cleavage. I said, "Cleavage happens and you get over it," which made the first girl splutter and we moved on.

OK, so I've kind of gone crazy in my post here in a thread about coffee. Sorry. I don't even like coffee. I'm trying to work through my thoughts on the topic of the WoW in general and bright line "rules" like wearing garments and necklines/hemlines, however. It makes the most sense to me to view the Word of Wisdom and other things that make us "weird" in terms of cultural identifiers or tribalism. As written, we've been far from observing the WoW since it became part of the temple recommend questions.

What does trouble me, however, is that my fondness for chai tea might equally exclude me from temple participation as a person who nightly engages in wild orgies. This "us vs. them" mentality surrounding the WoW has gone way too far, IMO. If we became slightly less of a peculiar people and instead focused more on loving our brothers and sisters in Christ wherever and whomever they may be, I think we'd go a lot further.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I recently got in a discussion about the WoW in Facebook on the fMh group. At one point, a couple of sociologists and an anthropologist piped up about the WoW as a form of tribalism or a method of creating a group identity separate from the mainstream. They spoke of the Jews not eating particular meats, keeping themselves separate from the other peoples, &c.

I found the anthropologist's comments particularly interesting. She spoke about using arbitrary yardsticks like whether or not you eat pork as a way to identify those who are "in" versus those who are "out," and that if you can reinforce those identities strongly enough the group will start governing itself in terms of who is "in" versus who is "out."

I see this all the time with the bright line rules associated with the LDS church. It's comparatively easy to perfectly live the Word of Wisdom. It's much easier than, for example, being scrupulously honest or Christ-like in all your dealings. For some reason, many people cling to the bright line rules as the sole indicator of a person's spiritual worthiness. It's not just the Word of Wisdom, although it's the most obvious example. One of my Mia Maids called her friend out for personal righteousness when the friend *gasp* showed a bit of cleavage. I said, "Cleavage happens and you get over it," which made the first girl splutter and we moved on.

OK, so I've kind of gone crazy in my post here in a thread about coffee. Sorry. I don't even like coffee. I'm trying to work through my thoughts on the topic of the WoW in general and bright line "rules" like wearing garments and necklines/hemlines, however. It makes the most sense to me to view the Word of Wisdom and other things that make us "weird" in terms of cultural identifiers or tribalism. As written, we've been far from observing the WoW since it became part of the temple recommend questions.

The frustrating thing is that WoW was never intended to be a "bright line" rule. It says so right in the revelation!! Grrr...

What does trouble me, however, is that my fondness for chai tea might equally exclude me from temple participation as a person who nightly engages in wild orgies. This "us vs. them" mentality surrounding the WoW has gone way too far, IMO. If we became slightly less of a peculiar people and instead focused more on loving our brothers and sisters in Christ wherever and whomever they may be, I think we'd go a lot further.

There is a sister in our ward that has issues with the WoW (for some of the reasons outlined in this thread). One day she asked our bishop if she could drink tea and still keep her temple rec. He told her to not worry about it.

Yeah, that's right. We Utah County wards are leading the way.

[Mrs. Funk]

The frustrating thing is that WoW was never intended to be a "bright line" rule. It says so right in the revelation!! Grrr...

Oh, I certainly agree with you. There was great worry that making it part of the temple recommend would put improper emphasis on the WoW. And shocker! It has!

There is a sister in our ward that has issues with the WoW (for some of the reasons outlined in this thread). One day she asked our bishop if she could drink tea and still keep her temple rec. He told her to not worry about it.

Yeah, that's right. We Utah County wards are leading the way.

Good on your bishop. To do otherwise seems ridiculous to me.

[Clark Addison]

Sure, that's the promise (or at least one of them--not even listed as the first promise). But there's nothing therein that actually leads to the promise.

I guess there's a semantic argument might have, but that's not very interesting, and doesn't take away from the point that the WOW as presently and previously taught has little or nothing to do with good health. I agree (and actually posted earlier in the threat) that we claim it does, but we need to stop that, because it doesn't.

I think you are overstating it by quite a bit. First off, you can't really say that "If you take away tobacco, it doesn't really promote healthiness", when tobacco is so huge.

Even if you do say that; however, you still have the following:

1. Alcohol. You can certainly make the argument that a glass of wine a day is healthy, and that alcohol in moderation is not a problem, but if you look at the real world, and the way that alcohol is actually consumed, it is a very large public health issue, especially if you consider the collateral effects such as drunk driving deaths.

2. Illicit drug use. This is not specifically proscribed in the WOW, but it certainly is in the current enforcement of it. This is obviously health-related.

3. Eat Meat Sparingly. This is kind of the opposite of #2. It is in the WOW but not enforced or practiced all that much. So I guess you can take either 2 or 3 out of the picture. I think eating meat according to the instructions in Section 89 would promote a healthier population.

Now, on the other side, with these benefits from following the WOW, you have things like coffee, tea, and red wine that the WOW forbids, and may be healthful. But all of these, even if the optimistic hopes of them are correct, do not come close to wiping out the benefits of following the WOW.

So while I agree with you that the WOW is not a perfect guide to good health, I can't see how you can possibly say that "the WOW as presently and previously taught has little or nothing to do with good health".

[scottie]

Oh, I certainly agree with you. There was great worry that making it part of the temple recommend would put improper emphasis on the WoW. And shocker! It has!



Good on your bishop. To do otherwise seems ridiculous to me.

Link?

[Mrs. Funk]

Link?

OK, "great concern" seems to be an overstatement. I confess that that particular nugget came out in discussion with my dad who has read about every book on Mormonism ever written (no, I'm not exaggerating all that much). I can talk to him and get more specific information as to the source.

I did find this at least somewhat interesting and relevant. I'm not a big reader of FAIR, but I did find the quotes on the progression of the WoW to be relevant.

[ERCougar]

I think you are overstating it by quite a bit. First off, you can't really say that "If you take away tobacco, it doesn't really promote healthiness", when tobacco is so huge.

Even if you do say that; however, you still have the following:

1. Alcohol. You can certainly make the argument that a glass of wine a day is healthy, and that alcohol in moderation is not a problem, but if you look at the real world, and the way that alcohol is actually consumed, it is a very large public health issue, especially if you consider the collateral effects such as drunk driving deaths.

2. Illicit drug use. This is not specifically proscribed in the WOW, but it certainly is in the current enforcement of it. This is obviously health-related.

3. Eat Meat Sparingly. This is kind of the opposite of #2. It is in the WOW but not enforced or practiced all that much. So I guess you can take either 2 or 3 out of the picture. I think eating meat according to the instructions in Section 89 would promote a healthier population.

Now, on the other side, with these benefits from following the WOW, you have things like coffee, tea, and red wine that the WOW forbids, and may be healthful. But all of these, even if the optimistic hopes of them are correct, do not come close to wiping out the benefits of following the WOW.

So while I agree with you that the WOW is not a perfect guide to good health, I can't see how you can possibly say that "the WOW as presently and previously taught has little or nothing to do with good health".

I work in Utah. Primarily Mormons. I deal with the same level of drunkenness and its effects as I did in Detroit. An alcohol ban does almost nothing to prevent alcohol abuse.

As for 2 and 3, fair point. Maybe. Illicit drugs are a legal issue and we really shouldn't be claiming any credit for that. As for meat, if it were accompanied by "substitute fruits and vegetables", I think you'd have a stronger point. Instead, we're counseled to "eat more grains"--the health benefit of substituting grains for meats is debatable.

People would be better off taking a nutrition class. Or even an hour seminar. Or just reading the back of my envelope. How many lessons do we devote to the Word of Wisdom? And a temple recommend question? So yeah, it has little or nothing to do with health.

(Really, I completely agree with the anthropologist cited by Mrs. Funk--it's a tribalism thing. A couple of years ago, I started drinking coffee on night shifts, saying that drinking coffee is a step up from drinking unnatural caffeine concoctions. But I immediately faced the question, "aren't you mormon?" It got tiring of explaining that (no one really cared about the answer anyway), so a few months ago, I went back to my caffeine concoctions. There is something to clear self-identification.)

[lambdacoug]

To bad it tastes terrible.