Wear Pants to Church Day

[FMCoug]

Me too. I can't wait to hear what this says about LDS church culture.

The very fact that I get mocked for my comments on LDS Church Culture illustrates the problem. If I'm not with you I'm against you right?

[byu71]

Since you don't seem to believe cultural conditioning even exists or that if it does, it means you are a mindless automaton, this discussion can't really go anywhere.

Also, I take back what I said the other day about nuance coming with age.

My heck, where did I ever indicate I don't believe in cultural conditioning? I don't believe the church programs end up conditioning women to accept a secondary position.

Maybe that is the affect on some. However, a woman could be very happy with her role in the church and not because she was conditioned to feel so.

To believe that would be to believe everyone who doesn't agree with us is a "conditioned" person and those who agree with us have broken out and now think for themselves. What a simplistic view of things.

When you get as old as I am, you will be surprised how many things you don't give a crap about anymore, but still like to talk about them.

[creekster]

The very fact that I get mocked for my comments on LDS Church Culture illustrates the problem. If I'm not with you I'm against you right?

Maybe. I mock people all the time for things they do that don't arise from cultural conditioning. Maybe you are just mock worthy.

[byu71]

The very fact that I get mocked for my comments on LDS Church Culture illustrates the problem. If I'm not with you I'm against you right?

Wait until JL mocks you, that really hurts. Religious zealots mocking me means nothing. However, when an intellectual zealot rips on me, I hurt bad.

[Pheidippides]

Sorry. That was autocorrect.

[FMCoug]

Wait until JL mocks you, that really hurts. Religious zealots mocking me means nothing. However, when an intellectual zealot rips on me, I hurt bad.

JL is my chief mocker on these things. Meh.

[smokymountainrain]

My heck, where did I ever indicate I don't believe in cultural conditioning? I don't believe the church programs end up conditioning women to accept a secondary position.

Maybe that is the affect on some. However, a woman could be very happy with her role in the church and not because she was conditioned to feel so.

To believe that would be to believe everyone who doesn't agree with us is a "conditioned" person and those who agree with us have broken out and now think for themselves. What a simplistic view of things.

When you get as old as I am, you will be surprised how many things you don't give a crap about anymore, but still like to talk about them.

Those of us who agree with the priesthood for women movement have been able to overcome the cultural conditioning. Those who disagree simply haven't been able to overcome it.

If you are a woman and are happy with your place in the church, you must have something wrong with you. But it's okay, you just been culturally conditioned and haven't overcome it yet like the rest of us.

[Jeff Lebowski]

My heck, where did I ever indicate I don't believe in cultural conditioning? I don't believe the church programs end up conditioning women to accept a secondary position.

Maybe that is the affect on some. However, a woman could be very happy with her role in the church and not because she was conditioned to feel so.

To believe that would be to believe everyone who doesn't agree with us is a "conditioned" person and those who agree with us have broken out and now think for themselves. What a simplistic view of things.

When you get as old as I am, you will be surprised how many things you don't give a crap about anymore, but still like to talk about them.

Oh, you believe in it because you refer to it almost every day in some fashion. You just don't fully understand it, as the latter part of this post illustrates.

BTW, cultural conditioning isn't necessarily a bad thing. And it isn't brainwashing, as you imply.

[Jeff Lebowski]

JL is my chief mocker on these things. Meh.

It's for your own good. You are kind of nuts sometimes. (sjbh)

[UtahDan]

It's caused a shitstorm, somewhat surprisingly, and I'm not sad to see it. It's brought visibility to an issue (I agree that there are larger ones) that would. otherwise not be there. I am surprised at the corners of the interwebs where I am hearing about this.

My wife and I will proudly be in pantsuit and purple respectively on Sunday and we'll be quiet and worship as always. It will be a nonevent except that we will have publicly outed ourselves as progmos (which will surprise precisely nobody). Except I'll be looking for purple/pantsuits on others, just to see who else is like minded.

You guys should go in matching pants suits.

[byu71]

Oh, you believe in it because you refer to it almost every day in some fashion. You just don't fully understand it, as the latter part of this post illustrates.

BTW, cultural conditioning isn't necessarily a bad thing. And it isn't brainwashing, as you imply.

The premise, "most women in the church have been conditioned to DEFEND their SECONDARY status".

If you were to say that to a group of Relief Society sisters would you think they would think you were talking about cultural conditiong and not being a bad thing or do you think they would think you just said they were brainwashed? Don't go back and edit your statement.

I do know how the two in this office would respond, but they have been conditioned to tell men to bite it when told they are mindless broads. I am not saying that is what you meant, just how they would have taken it.

Lastly, in the end I will let you win. You have a reputation to maintain, I don't.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Those of us who agree with the priesthood for women movement have been able to overcome the cultural conditioning. Those who disagree simply haven't been able to overcome it.

If you are a woman and are happy with your place in the church, you must have something wrong with you. But it's okay, you just been culturally conditioned and haven't overcome it yet like the rest of us.

Now you are making a caricature out of what I said. Let's start over with a simple approach:

Do you are do you not believe that women in the church are subordinate to men? As evidenced by:

-Polygamy (both historical and the celestial polygamy we currently practice)
-Priesthood
-Leadership opportunities
-Policy issues (women can't pray at GC, can't handle money, etc.)
etc.

Yes or no.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The premise, "most women in the church have been conditioned to DEFEND their SECONDARY status".

If you were to say that to a group of Relief Society sisters would you think they would think you were talking about cultural conditiong and not being a bad thing or do you think they would think you just said they were brainwashed? Don't go back and edit your statement.

I do know how the two in this office would respond, but they have been conditioned to tell men to bite it when told they are mindless broads. I am not saying that is what you meant, just how they would have taken it.

Lastly, in the end I will let you win. You have a reputation to maintain, I don't.

I am not backing away from that at all. I think the majority of women in the church would defend the status quo.

[byu71]

Now you are making a caricature out of what I said. Let's start over with a simple approach:

Do you are do you not believe that women in the church are subordinate to men? As evidenced by:

-Polygamy (both historical and the celestial polygamy we currently practice)
-Priesthood
-Leadership opportunities
-Policy issues (women can't pray at GC, can't handle money, etc.)
etc.

Yes or no.

How enlightening. Well based on that, they certainly should be. How come Emma got the WOW through. I wish she had remained subordinate. I would like a beer and a good cigar.

I am also going to point these items out to my daughter in laws when they say my boys can't go golfing with me.

[Pheidippides]

How enlightening. Well based on that, they certainly should be. How come Emma got the WOW through. I wish she had remained subordinate. I would like a beer and a good cigar.

I am also going to point these items out to my daughter in laws when they say my boys can't go golfing with me.

There are a number of people who claim that the tea and coffee parts of the WOW were Joseph's way at getting back, since Emma loved those drinks.