New LDS Church Website: Mormons and Gays

[taekwondave]

That is what, sixth grade? May not even be through puberty yet. And it isn't just her, it is the world she lives in. Friends, kids at school, etc. People complain that we over-sexualize childhood, and I agree. A 12-yr-old is a child in every sense.

Just curious, at what age would you draw the line? 8? 5? 3?

What line does the church draw for kids that age talking about getting a straight wedding in the temple?

All I know is that as young as 5 I had huge crushes on girls. By 12 it would have been OLD news to me that I liked girls. I see no reason that wouldn't be the case for this girl as well.

*Also, let's not act like sexuality is some forbidden subject in the church or something--including when it comes to children. Pretty sure 8 year olds are being asked law of chastity questions about porn and masturbation and all that. Hell when I got the priesthood (I'm old enough to get the priesthood but not old enough to even know what gender I'm attracted to?) my bishop asked me a slew of really weird questions like "Do you walk around your house with your shirt off?" so don't act like sexuality is something the church doesn't beat kids her age over the head with already.

[Northwestcoug]

I have zero problem with parents discussing these things privately with kids and providing them with all the love and support they need. It is making a public spectacle that is a bad idea. Do children really need to be publicly discussing their sexual attraction?

Do you think your 8-yr-old relative would have been better off declaring a sexual preference in a public event at that age? I doubt it.



Probably 16-18.

If we're going to argue that fine a point, then in general I agree with you. Young kids shouldn't make public statements about their sexuality that can be exploited on social media.

But I think it would be extremely difficult loving and supporting a gay kid, and not having that support transmitted publicly in some way. That support is bound to turn into some form of public advocacy, no matter how small the sphere of influence. How much would you caution kids younger than 16-18 to not be public about their sexuality? In the case of a 12 year old, are you going to ask them to play safe and be quiet about their feelings for 4 years?

These are all hard questions. But again, there isn't a universal coming out age that fits every kid.

[swampfrog]

I meant to back and quote some things last night, but had other things to take care of. I seemingly continue to say things which makes people believe that I accept or am defending the family's point of view and narrative. I don't and I'm not.

I agree it's crazy to have a 12-year-old publicly "coming out". Which means that if we're aware of that situation, we might want to approach things with even more charity towards the 12-year-old than we would have otherwise. Whether or not it's likely to change, she is currently attracted to girls. I think it preferable that be dealt with privately, but given the current state of affairs, it is common to believe it should be publicly celebrated. That is this 12-year-old's current reality.

What I am trying to accomplish is to counter the current public narrative, that a 12-year-old girl was silenced by a homophobic mormon leader. I can't counter with "it's obvious the mother/family/gay community manipulated the situation". I have to definitely show/prove why this is the case, why the version of events I'm presenting is valid because my kids natural tendency is to accept the public narrative. The vast echo chamber of their social media feeds reinforces that perspective. And in the not-too-distant past this was actually the case, and partially continues today. The church is producing the large amount of current materials on this issue because it is trying to change public perception--because the public perception isn't good.

If a parent has been able to completely counteract this influence in their children and also managed to raise free-thinking, decide-for-yourself, capable-of-nuance, young adults, they have my respect. I'm still working on it.

Some specifics quotes, quit reading if you've already read the articles or don't care, but these are excerpts form the narrative:

Huffington Post (this is the most often "shared" story")

Unfortunately, she was cut off part of the way through her speech by a church official who asked her to sit down, effectively silencing the preteen as she attempted to share her story.

Prior to being interrupted, Savannah offered her powerful and heartwarming personal account about her relationship with her sexuality.

Heather went on to say that Savannah had been asking to share her story in front of the church since last January to possibly let other closeted church members know that they had in ally in her.

Podcast

Jerilyn: Out of five kids. So, that was last summer, and you’ve just come out to a few people here and there, and what made you decide you wanted to get up and talk about it in testimony meeting?

Savannah: Because I felt like people weren’t being very supportive or nice to gays for who they are, and that’s how God made them, and they were just being super rude to everyone, and children would start coming up to their kids, and they would say mean things to them, and I found that really offensive. So, I wanted to be people’s voice.

Jerilyn: Wow, that’s really impressive. I don’t know many 12, almost 13 year olds who “want to be people’s voice”. So you decided in January that you wanted to get up and bear your testimony? Because you wanted people to know that there was somebody in the ward that was—

Savannah: No, I didn’t know; I don’t know, because I don’t want to be in people’s personal life, but I just wanted to send them a message that you should be careful with what you say to others.

Jerilyn: Do you feel like you’re a child of God?

Savannah: Not right now.

Jerilyn: Not right now,really? Why not right now? Because of the—

Savannah: Because of what they’ve done. I don’t feel like it was God’s choice. I think that they did it on their own.

...Your point about bearing your testimony was to talk about how you know that God accepts and loves you as a gay kid, because I know there’s going to be a lot of people who say, she only did that to shame the church, or to make a scene, what would you say to those people who say that to you?

Savannah: Where do you even get that idea?

Jerilyn: Right?

Savannah: Because I didn’t say anything rude about the church, I didn’t say I didn’t believe about the church, or anything like that, and I, I talked about Christ, and God in it, and how He made me the way that I am, and how we’re all children of God, so, yeah, I don’t see how they got that idea.

Jerilyn: Because I’m sure a lot of people would like to hear this highly controversial thing that got you—that a grown man had to shut down out of fear for an entire congregation.

Savannah: Yeah, but that’s the thing: since I didn’t finish, people have been making words and putting them into my mouth, which I didn’t say.

Savannah: Ok. So what happened is, at school, a couple of people came up to me, and said that they supported me, which I was surprised about how many they were. And the stake president’s daughter came up to me and said she didn’t agree with his decision, and supported me.

Jerilyn: Wow. Wow, that’s pretty impressive. How did that make you feel?

Savannah: I felt really good inside, and that she rebelled [against] her father – not saying that you should do that!

Reddit

My husband and I went through MUCH deliberating on wether or not to let her do this. She wanted to be herself in front of them, see if church would be a place to accept her, and to speak up in case there was another LGBT person in the congregation that needed to hear they weren't alone. This was her idea, much to the contrary of my neighbors beliefs. I could have said no, don't say this, don't do this, but that would be telling my child to hide, telling her she's not good enough to have a space to speak. Or I could let her be her, and speak her truth. I went over the possible natural consequences of this, and she was willing to accept them. She wrote her words very carefully, even had her TBM dad read them to see if they were respectful enough for the pulpit. He agreed they were.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The little girl is podcasting now? Oh boy.

[jay santos]

From the John Dehlin interview:

John: did you attend church after first coming out to your mom?

Savannah: (in a 12 yo giggly girl voice) No, because it's a little weird, they keep changing their story.

John: OK, like?

Savannah: Like Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by looking in his hat.

John: Oh you've been reading a lot about church history? What have you been reading?

Savannah: No, I didn't really read anything. I just talk to my mom.

[cougjunkie]

From the John Dehlin interview:

John: did you attend church after first coming out to your mom?

Savannah: (in a 12 yo giggly girl voice) No, because it's a little weird, they keep changing their story.

John: OK, like?

Savannah: Like Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by looking in his hat.

John: Oh you've been reading a lot about church history? What have you been reading?

Savannah: No, I didn't really read anything. I just talk to my mom.

Lol. So much for ER and TKDs theory.

[BigFatMeanie]

What line does the church draw for kids that age talking about getting a straight wedding in the temple?

All I know is that as young as 5 I had huge crushes on girls. By 12 it would have been OLD news to me that I liked girls. I see no reason that wouldn't be the case for this girl as well.

*Also, let's not act like sexuality is some forbidden subject in the church or something--including when it comes to children. Pretty sure 8 year olds are being asked law of chastity questions about porn and masturbation and all that. Hell when I got the priesthood (I'm old enough to get the priesthood but not old enough to even know what gender I'm attracted to?) my bishop asked me a slew of really weird questions like "Do you walk around your house with your shirt off?" so don't act like sexuality is something the church doesn't beat kids her age over the head with already.

I'm pretty sure that the above statement is pure unadulterated horse shit.

[swampfrog]

Wanted to respond to some things specifically here.

The main argument is that her parents were foolish and/or malicious for allowing this to happen.

That's not an argument that I'm engaging in (though it keeps being attributed to me). It's possible/probable the mom has an agenda of her own as someone who has already left the church over the policy change. But it's also possible that she acquiesced to what her daughter wanted to do. We are not privy to those conversations, I personally will not draw concrete conclusions.

Are you implying it wasn't her parents? By all accounts I have seen, her parents (mother specifically) helped prep her over several months. If it was someone else, her parents allowed it to happen.

Can you please post a link to these accounts? I cannot find corroborating information that the mother prepped her. I've seen the handwritten testimony on the podcast linked earlier, the daughter wrote it. And I agree (I believe I've stated this multiple times) the parents most likely should not have allowed it. Reading the transcript of the podcast, this is a very precocious 12-year-old, who appears to have been adamant that she needed to do this.

And these details matter how? These are all repercussions of the decision to let her do this.

Because these details and repercussions will affect whether at least one of my children eventually submits her resignation notice to the church. For some reason that matters to me.

Can we stop for a second and consider the perspective of the church leader? Let me tell you, it is no fun at all to sit up there and try to decide on the spur of the moment what you are going to let pass and what you should stop. A leader has a huge responsibility for conducting and overseeing a meeting and most err on the side of leeway. In this case, the leaders had to make an immediate decision. They don't get the benefit of time or hindsight.

Let me ask you this: If her testimony was written out well in advance and people knew enough about the "event" to attend and witness, why not approach the leader well before the meeting with the written testimony and ask "Do you have any problem if our daughter gives this testimony?" If the well-being and wishes of the daughter were truly what the parents were concerned about, why not take that approach? Given sufficient time to think it through, the bishop may have decided it was OK, but then would probably remind them not to film it. Or he may have been OK with a few edits. Or he may have said, "I am sorry, this would not be appropriate for a testimony meeting." and then the girl would have been spared the embarrassment. But to ambush a meeting like this and then second-guess the "authority figures" is not fair at all.

I'm still trying to figure out how what I said caused this response. I understand the situation here and why he chose as he did, and also that someone else could have chosen differently. It's a difficult dynamic situation that could and should have been avoided--but it occurred and now I have to deal with it. In my conversation with my children the difference of a few non-member friends attending (who of course have their phones out--because they record everything) and attendance by a group of "about" 30 that is recording in hopes of getting something they can use is a huge difference. In the second case, the choice to silence her is more obvious, in the first case, not so much. I'm frustrated that I am unable to make this clear. My original post was to get this information because it matters--specifically to counteract the homophobic, heartless, mormon authority narrative.

Personally, I think 12 years old is far too young to come out in public, regardless of the venue and regardless of how she presented it.

I keep thinking that I've made it clear I agree with this. I'm dealing with the aftermath and how that is being spun in the media, social, web, or otherwise. While you and I may think that it's too young, there are many who don't who are very vocal about it.

If I appear disingenuous, I will forward you a link to my daughter's Facebook post and following conversation on this topic in a private message. (Which I have chose to respond to privately).

[swampfrog]

The little girl is podcasting now? Oh boy.

Someone else's podcast, she is the interviewee, but yes, the mom is running with it, which is further evidence that I can use in my continuing conversation.

[creekster]

Good luck swampfrog. I hope your child doesn't make any decision on this scenario, which is convoluted at best.

[swampfrog]

From the John Dehlin interview:

John: did you attend church after first coming out to your mom?

Savannah: (in a 12 yo giggly girl voice) No, because it's a little weird, they keep changing their story.

John: OK, like?

Savannah: Like Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon by looking in his hat.

John: Oh you've been reading a lot about church history? What have you been reading?

Savannah: No, I didn't really read anything. I just talk to my mom.

Thanks for this, I had not seen this yet--it provides evidence that the mother has some history of providing a specific anti-church narrative.

[jay santos]

The mom started out in the John Dehlin interview talking about how concerned she was about the Savannah publicity and had no idea it would get like this and really didn't know what to think about it. But then she ended the interview sobbing about the gay LDS teen suicides and demanding action and how she's so happy Savannah could be part of something that could cause some change. It's not wrong for her to sob over this issue. And it might be important enough for people to take drastic action like stage and record events in LDS F&T meetings. But let's own what we do.

[Goatnapper'96]

I'm pretty sure that the above statement is pure unadulterated horse shit.

In addition to running a 4.3 40 mtr dash TKD went to the mormon church once so he is pretty much an expert on what goes on!

[Applejack]

Probably 16-18.

I'd say younger. If it's ok to marry the prophet of god "several months before [one's] 15th birthday", it should be ok to declare one's sexuality by then.

[BigFatMeanie]

Wanted to respond to some things specifically here.

Your kid situation is very different from mine. I discussed it with my kids: daughter - age 13, son - age 15, daughter - age 17, daughter - age 21. We were all in the car going to get frozen custard at the new Nielsen's Frozen Custard stand that just opened up near our house (custard review: good but way overpriced - not a good value). This is how the conversation went:

BFM: Hey, did you guys see the video of that 12 year old girl coming out in testimony meeting?
Daughter13: Yeah, I watched it.

BFM: What did you think?
Daughter13: Whatever, I don't care.

BFM: Are all your friends on social media talking about it?
Son15, Daughter17: I haven't heard anything about it. None of my friends care about it.

BFM: Do you think the church should let gay people be married in the temple? (NOTE: I'm against the government being in the "marriage" business. I think the government should provide for legal civil unions of all people, straight or gay, and not recognize any ceremony performed by any religion. Separate the church and state. I also think the church needs to change the definition off the law of chastity because the "legally and lawfully married" language essentially means the church is outsourcing the definition of chastity to a third-party.)
All in unison: No

BFM: But that means in the eyes of the church they couldn't have sex without sinning. Do you think it's fair that the church essentially requires gay people to be celibate their whole lives?
Son15: Daughter21 is never going to find a man so she is going to have to be celibate her entire life, so, whatever. I don't care.
Daughter21: Shut up Son15. You are a loser and no girl will ever marry you so you better hope you turn out gay.
Daughter17: I wonder what flavors of frozen custard they have?
Daughter12: I'll be pissed if they don't have strawberry.
Son15: Strawberry sucks and you are an idiot.

...

The conversation devolved from there.

So, either I'm raising a bunch of heartless bastards or you're raising a bunch of overly-sensitive bleeding hearts. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle but the ways our kids responded to the situation are clearly very different.