Book of Mormon Christian/Reformed Mormon/Whitmerite

[Viking]

That's a very interesting perspective, DW. Thanks for typing that out. But you might want to avoid statements such as where you claim that the LDS church doesn't follow a single doctrine in the BOM. That is silly and demonstrably false and damages your credibility.

By the way, you might be interested in this little discussion we had on the concept of the restoration (start at post #76):


http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showth...855#post820855


I have noted a few times that the BOM represents more of a traditional protestant view of religion compared to the current LDS theology.

You're wasting your time, with all due respect.

[PaloAltoCougar]

DW, that was interesting, thanks. Do you believe in the literal truth and historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon (i.e., the people, places and events identified in the book really existed as described therein)? You may have answered this in another thread, but I can't find it. I'm asking simply out of curiosity and don't intend to follow up with any other questions (no rhetorical questions or cross examinations from me).

[Pheidippides]

Thank you very much for sharing. This is what I was asking for, and I do find it interesting.

The concept of rejecting just about everything that is post BOM from the mainstream LDS church is something I've heard of before. I don't know of churches that follow this but you are by no means the first individual I'm aware of that has this belief/practice. It's also pretty much what the Nauvoo Expositor was advocating, so I totally get the William Law bit (I view him much as you seem to, actually, or at least with a great deal of empathy). My wife and I also joke that, with respect to the mainstream LDS church, the BOM is noteworthy not for what it contains but for what it doesn't.

One question: you mention the "no apostasy" concept earlier. How do you treat the second half of 1 Ne 13? These are (as I'm sure you know) used generally in the mainstream LDS church as relating to the concept of apostasy.

I also ask because I'm curious (in other words, I'm not looking to form a rebuttal).

[DWhitmer]

you might want to avoid statements such as where you claim that the LDS church doesn't follow a single doctrine in the BOM. That is silly and demonstrably false

Show one and I'll gladly adjust that statement, thanks.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Show one and I'll gladly adjust that statement, thanks.

Oh brother.

[DWhitmer]

Do you believe in the literal truth and historical accuracy of the Book of Mormon (i.e., the people, places and events identified in the book really existed as described therein)?

Absolutely I do. Don't get me wrong, I realize there is not the hard evidence people expect, but there are reasons for this:

1. The Lamanites understood well what the Nephite prophecies were, that they would be destroyed and yet they would speak from the dust via their records in future generations. Therefore, they not only exterminated the Nephites, they erased any clue they ever existed.

2. God will not allow evidence to come forth while the nephite record is tied to Mormonism. God does not want the false teachings of J.Smith to be confirmed.

3. As soon as the Holy Book of Mormon becomes separated from the Mormon Church, in the eyes of the public, the evidence will be found just as the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Staffordshire Gold Hoard, Varna Necropolis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, etc., were found right under their feet.

Nevertheless, there do remain things not easily destroyed like dirt fortifications in the places where they should be, and none where they should not be. Consider western New York, where the record came forth:

"Commencing at the southern shores of the northern lakes [Erie & Ontario] and extending southward a hundred miles or more we find a greater number of military works than in any other section of the United States." (Frederick Larkin, M.D., Ancient Man in America, 1888, p. 72)

The site www.bookofmormongeography.org lists many other evidences and is the only model set solely within the boundaries of Colonial America where BoM land prophecies were fulfilled.

[DWhitmer]

The concept of rejecting just about everything that is post BOM from the mainstream LDS church is something I've heard of before. I don't know of churches that follow this but you are by no means the first individual I'm aware of that has this belief/practice.

By all means, let me know who they are.

One question: you mention the "no apostasy" concept earlier. How do you treat the second half of 1 Ne 13? These are (as I'm sure you know) used generally in the mainstream LDS church as relating to the concept of apostasy.

You're right, the abominable church would become in a state of apostasy, apostasy from truth, not priesthood.

On a similar topic is the New Jerusalem. J.Smith said it would be built in Independence, MO and Mormons are waiting to be called back there to build that city before Jesus can return.

The Holy Book of Mormon contradicts such claim on two fronts:

1. The New Jerusalem would be built prior to the record coming forth.

2. It would be built on ancient BoM land.

If Mormon professors, et. al. believe BoM lands were in Mexico, then they need to make plans to walk there to build the New Jerusalem, not Independence, MO.

Conclusion

The New Jerusalem is more of a government than a city, although America is referred to as "a city on a hill."

America is the New Jerusalem, which was jointly founded by the Lamanites and the Colonists and Mormons need not look for another.

[DU Ute]

Oh brother.

[SoonerCoug]

Absolutely I do. Don't get me wrong, I realize there is not the hard evidence people expect, but there's are reasons for this:

1. The Lamanites understood well that the Nephite prophecies were, that they would be destroyed and yet they would speak from the dust via their records to future generations. Therefore, they only exterminated believers, they purposely erased any clue they ever existed.

2. God will not allow evidence to come forth while the nephite record is tied to Mormonism. God does not want the false teachings of J.Smith to be confirmed.

3. As soon as the Holy Book of Mormon becomes separated from the Mormon Church, in the eyes of the public, the evidence will be found just as the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Staffordshire Gold Hoard, Varna Necropolis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, etc.

Nevertheless, there does remain things not easily destroyed like their dirt fortifications - where they should be, and not where they should not be:

"Commencing at the southern shores of the northern lakes [Erie & Ontario] and extending southward a hundred miles or more we find a greater number of military works than in any other section of the United States." (Frederick Larkin, M.D., Ancient Man in America, 1888, p. 72)

The site www.bookofmormongeography.org lists many other evidences and is the only model set solely within the boundaries of Colonial America, where BoM land prophecies were all fulfilled. I hope this information explains enough and leaves you with hope for what will yet come forth after the Holy Book of Mormon is severed from the Mormon Church.

[YOUTUBE]d1WcxRaMmIM[/YOUTUBE]

[DWhitmer]

...

And Jesus said: "It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks." (Acts 9:5)

[SeattleUte]

Exactly. I'm trying to tell Whitmer that his new beliefs are a mistake because he has ostracized himself from a superior group in favor of a vastly inferior one. I am super proud of the Mormon Church even though I don't believe in it. Truth is irrelevant when it comes to irrational beliefs.

Somalia is to the USA what the Church of Christ Temple Lot is to the Mormon Empire. Why would someone want want to affiliate himself with the less successful branches of Latter-day Saintism?

Whitmer reminds me of an American guy who defected to the USSR in the early 1980s during perestroika. He said goodbye to America on the Today Show. I remember watching that interview in total disbelief even though I was a young child. I see Whitmer in the very same way.

He has forged a new allegory (although as some have noted one that is not entirely original as it follows the RLDS except that he has a higher regard for the BOM than the RLDS; eveyone needs a founding myth).

Your comparison of Mormonism to America is highly offensive to hundreds of millions of people (including myself).

[Jeff Lebowski]

He has forged a new allegory (although as some have noted one that is not entirely original as it follows the RLDS except that he has a higher regard for the BOM than the RLDS; eveyone needs a founding myth).

Your comparison of Mormonism to America is highly offensive to hundreds of millions of people (including myself).

There he goes again!

[SoonerCoug]

Your comparison of Mormonism to America is highly offensive to hundreds of millions of people (including myself).

It is mostly a reference to prosperity and resources.

[DWhitmer]

He has forged a new allegory (although as some have noted one that is not entirely original as it follows the RLDS except that he has a higher regard for the BOM than the RLDS; eveyone needs a founding myth).

No offense, that's hogwash.

Do RLDS have high priests? The New Covenant part of the Holy Book of Mormon doesn't. Do RLDS have apostles? The BoM doesn't. Do RLDS use the correct name of a church of Christ? No. Do they baptize children for sins? Yes.

The Community of Christ is not even close to being a Book of Mormon based church.

[UtahDan]

I have noted a few times that the BOM represents more of a traditional protestant view of religion compared to the current LDS theology.

I think his view is an inevitable permutation resulting from what you are saying here. When confronted with the difference you are talking about, most people are either going to scrap the whole thing or find a way to harmonize it, but at least a few people are going to run their true belief in the BOM out to its logical conclusion. Most people have far more loyalty to the organization than they do to the book, which given the idea of modern prophets makes sense. Someone who was not around to see the sausage get made concluding that they can swallow everything one needs to to believe in the historicity of the BOM but not in the authority of the church is just a very interesting oddity. (No offense, DW, I think you are an interesting cat now that I have heard everything you have to say).