Book of Mormon Christian/Reformed Mormon/Whitmerite

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  • DWhitmer
    Light Years Ahead
    • Oct 2012
    • 144

    #1

    Book of Mormon Christian/Reformed Mormon/Whitmerite

    I have been asked to elaborate on my beliefs in a new thread, so here it is. [I was a 7th generation Mormon before resigning and officially having my name removed. I loved the church.]

    TITLE

    To Christians I prefer the title "Book of Mormon Christian"; among Mormons I prefer the same or "Reformed Mormon." I do not like the term Whitmerite as I don't follow David.

    To break it down, I am a Christian who accepts the BoM. To a Mormon, I was a Mormon who no longer accepts the D&C or PoGP.

    REFORMERS WERE INSPIRED

    The Reformers were inspired by God, i.e. they had the Spirit for their guide, or in other words, they knew God's will and were doing it - without Mormon baptism, Mormon priesthood, Mormon laying on of hands "for the gift of the Holy Ghost."
    13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
    15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; (1 Nephi 13)

    GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST

    The "gift" of the Holy Ghost is controlled by no man, that is why it is called a "gift," it is free to all:
    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 10:45)

    I Nephi was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things by the power of the Holy Ghost which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men. (1 Nephi 10:17)

    NO APOSTASY

    If the gift of the Holy Ghost is not controlled by man, i.e. by a priesthood given through the laying on of hands, then what caused the dark ages?
    20 And the reason why he ceaseth to do miracles among the children of men is because that they dwindle in unbelief and depart from the right way and know not the God in whom they should trust
    21 behold I say unto you That whoso believeth in Christ doubting nothing whatsoever he shall ask the Father in the name of Christ it shall be granted them and this promise is unto all even unto the ends of the earth (Mormon 9)

    We who have served missions know there is more than the Mormon priesthood to achieving miracles and in fact they happen all the time in spite of it.

    REFORMATION -V- RESTORATION

    Early Christian reformers used the word "restoration" at times to mean "let's restore the Bible and remove the additions of man." When the Holy Book of Mormon came forth, there in fact already was a "Restoration Movement" (also known as the Stone-Campbell Movement).

    I believe Thomas Campbell (1763-1854) was one of those foretold in the Holy Book of Mormon to prepare the way for the coming forth of the record. He was a Presbyterian Minister who resigned due to those "additions of man." Unfortunately, he and his son Alexander were at odds with one Sidney Rigdon over something similar to the United Order.

    Had Campbell embraced the record before Rigdon, Campbell would have had no animosity against it and would have embraced it, saying "it answers all the problems of the day." Anyone who reads his Declaration and Address (Thomas Campbell, 1809) will recognize this fact.

    So, was J.Smith told to start something new or help something in the works? The following revelation given in 1829 (while J.Smith still had the special anointing to bring forth the record) was later removed and speaks volumes:
    "And thus, if the people of this generation harden not their hearts, I will work a REFORMATION among them, and I will put down all lyings, and deceivings, and priestcrafts, and envyings, and strifes, and idolatries, and sorceries, and all manner of iniquities, and I will establish my church, like unto the church which was taught by my disciples in the days of old. And now if this generation do harden their hearts against my word, behold I will deliver them up unto Satan, for he reigneth and hath power at this time, for he hath got great hold upon the hearts of the people of this generation; and not far from the iniquities of Sodom and Gomorrah, do they come at this time: and behold the sword of justice hangeth over their heads, and if they persist in the hardness of their hearts, the time cometh that it must fall upon them. Behold I tell you these things even as I also told the people of the destruction of Jerusalem, and my word shall be verified at this time as it hath hitherto been verified." (D&C 5:20 compared with Book of Commandments IV:5. Italicized words were removed by J.Smith.)

    As can been seen, J.Smith was called in 1829 to continue reforming what Campbell, Luther, Rogers, etc. had done. Remember, God's Holy Spirit was upon the Gentiles according to the Holy Book of Mormon, i.e. God was with those Protestants!

    PREACH

    If J.Smith was not called to start a church, what was he called to do beyond bringing forth the Nephite record? Both the prophecies about the seer and what David Whitmer said make it clear he was meant to preach and convince others what he brought forth and adherents to the holy record were meant to take it back to their flocks and continue the reforming, not join J.Smith's church and give it a back seat treatment to the D&C.

    Instead, J.Smith built his own church and left the Holy Book of Mormon behind:
    "Joseph Smith did not refer to passages from the book in his writings or sermons, nor was it cited very often by early church leaders." (Grant Hardy in Royal Skousen ed., The Book of Mormon, the Earliest Text, Yale University Press, 2009, p. xxii)

    It is a tragedy what became of the record that was destined to unite, not further divide the body of Christ. The gospel contained in it is simple, because God is kind. Nearly every Protestant church could embrace without much change, except for two things: Communion and Baptism!

    COMMUNION

    Where are the prayers and instructions for Communion in the Bible? Gone. What did the Reformers take a stand on? Among other things, the Communion was a big part. The Holy Book of Mormon restores those prayers and instructions.

    Do followers of the holy record adhere to its teachings on the Communion? In part, they use the prayers but they fail to follow its application. It is not to be given to anyone excepting those who have repented and been baptized, i.e. not to infants, the comatose, or investigators.

    BAPTISM

    Where are the instructions for baptism in the Bible? They were removed and aren't there as foretold, which has divided the body of believers. When it comes to baptism, the worst crime is the baptism of children. Both Jesus and Mormon established the principle that the baptism for sin was for those who had need of repenting. J.Smith mandated an age when all children should be baptized - eight. There is ZERO difference between a child one day old and one who turned eight.

    Those two doctrines alone caused me to side with the holy record and ditch the "additions of men" or the D&C.

    POLYGAMY

    The union of a rare practice to preserve seed with salvation (Mormon Exaltation) is perhaps the greatest offense outside of baptizing children for sins. Again, the holy record is clear -it is an abomination - and the Bible says you cannot hold a church office if you are a polygamist:
    Bishops, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:2
    Elders, the husband of one wife -Titus 1:6
    Deacons, the husband of one wife -1 Tim. 3:12
    Not any man save it be one wife - Jacob 2:27

    When I found that David Whitmer came to the same conclusions as I did, I learned I could not trust Mormon scholarship on him. He was greatly disparaged by LDS/RLDS/Ex-members. Lies upon lies; I have documented many here: Disparaged.

    WILLIAM LAW

    After coining the term Reformed Mormonism I learned that one other person had used it before me - William Law - you know, the man all Mormons are taught was a bad guy and an outlaw.

    In researching the history around the title Reformed Mormon and the man William Law, I was shocked to find he had been more misrepresented than even David and so I built a web site laying out those facts.

    After reading the particulars on J.Smith in the Nauvoo period, I became thoroughly disgusted and stopped giving J.Smith the benefit of the doubt ALL OF THE TIME. I just could not extend to him my unfailing support and had to admit, not only had he gone against the holy record in starting a church and never preaching the Holy Book of Mormon, but he went further and betrayed the trust of those whom he was over, both as guardian and as prophet/president.

    To take the virtue of fourteen year olds, not just once, but several times, speaks of a mental and spiritual state that is so appalling, it defies description. So while converts via the Holy Book of Mormon were sacrificing everything to get to Nauvoo, Joe was literally holding elaborate parties in his mansion, smoking cigars, drinking, etc.

    William Law was justified in exposing the lies just as soon as he learned of them. Joe and Hyrum tried to mar his character but Law was too well known and respected and so it came to a head. The Mormon Church has admitted that Joe had over 30 wives and they were sexual relationships.
    "The public accusations of polygamy leveled against Smith by the dissidents forced him to respond. He did so in a speech to the community on 26 May 1844. Despite his long practice of taking plural wives and his issuance of a revelation -- to close associates only -- that justified polygamy, Smith continued publicly to deny all such charges. Moreover, those who accused him -- including William and Wilson Law, who are named in the speech -- were defamed as "false swearers" and "wolves," whose charges were "of the devil." Two months earlier, in another speech, he had accused the Laws and other dissenters of conspiring to murder him, and he repeated that charge here. As this document reveals, Joseph Smith employed public denunciation as an important means of counteracting his critics." (John E. Hallwas and Roger D. Launius, Cultures in Conflict, A Documentary History of the Mormon War in Illinois, Utah State University Press, 1995, p. 138.)

    Now go back and reread D&C 132. When I did, it made me sick; I physically wanted to vomit. And to think IT is the basis of temple marriages and sealings; I realized it was filled with more of the "additions of man" and certainly not supported by the gospel in either the New Testament or The Holy Book of Mormon.

    I do support the idea of having a house of prayer and baptisms for the dead.

    BANKRUPTCY

    When you learn how J.Smith dressed and how he lived in that mansion, and had to file for bankruptcy, knowing how much money converts donated, it compounds the already unforgivable acts of fornicating in the name of God.

    PRESIDENT/MAYOR/BANKER/REAL ESTATE/ETC
    And in temporal labors thou shalt not have strength, for this is not thy calling. Attend to thy calling and thou shalt have wherewith to magnify thine office, and to expound all scriptures, and continue in laying on of the hands and confirming the churches. (D&C 24:9)

    HOLY BOOK OF MORMON

    We know why people join the Mormon Church - they obtain a testimony of The Holy Book of Mormon. What a misuse of a book! The Mormon Church does not follow a single doctrine in it and missionaries should be asking investigators to pray about the D&C instead.

    CONSEQUENCES
    Whoso among you shall do more or less than [Book of Mormon]...the gates of hell are ready open to receive them. (3 Nephi 18:13)
    54 And your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief, and because you have treated lightly the things you have received
    55 Which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation.
    56 And this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all.
    57 And they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments which I have given them, not only to say, but to do according to that which I have written— (D&C 84:54-57, 1832)

    The sooner Mormons return to the Holy Book of Mormon, the sooner they will come out from the curse and be embraced by the Holy Spirit and fellow Protestants.
    Last edited by DWhitmer; 10-19-2012, 05:58 PM.
  • CardiacCoug
    вот так штука
    • Nov 2008
    • 11013

    #2
    So I'll ask again, doesn't the Community of Christ have things pretty close to correct from your perspective?

    Seems like you should be aligning yourself with them. You can believe the Book of Mormon but sort of otherwise be a regular Protestant.

    Comment

    • Northwestcoug
      Cocked and Loaded
      • May 2011
      • 17922

      #3
      This is an interesting perspective. Thanks for taking the time to flesh it out.

      As has been alluded to before, there is a wide range of belief on this site. It won't take long to find very nuanced opinions of Joseph Smith. I think the majority of us are very well-versed with the issues you bring up. Some choose to place the unsavory aspects of JS in a faithful framework, while others choose to limit their church activity/belief because of them.

      If you stick around, I'd suggest laying off the lecturing and preaching. We can discuss the issues, but we'd rather not hear of the condemnation that we're under (at least the believing ones). If your cause is just, we'll come around to it in time.
      "...you pointy-headed autopsy nerd. Do you think it's possible for you to post without using words like "hilarious," "absurd," "canard," and "truther"? Your bare assertions do not make it so. Maybe your reasoning is too stunted and your vocabulary is too limited to go without these epithets."
      "You are an intemperate, unscientific poster who makes light of very serious matters.”
      - SeattleUte

      Comment

      • DWhitmer
        Light Years Ahead
        • Oct 2012
        • 144

        #4
        Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
        So I'll ask again, doesn't the Community of Christ have things pretty close to correct from your perspective? Seems like you should be aligning yourself with them. You can believe the Book of Mormon but sort of otherwise be a regular Protestant.
        Well, I give them credit for leaning more towards the Protestant framework, but deductions for having disregard for the Holy Book of Mormon. In truth, they don't preach it, don't use it, and certainly don't follow it. This is why imo they are shrinking rather than growing, the blessings follow the Holy Book of Mormon.

        There are other denominations that use the Book of Mormon but who don't follow its teachings. The false concept that a church needs an OT priesthood and twelve apostles is not supported by the two New Covenant records - Bible or Holy Book of Mormon.
        Last edited by DWhitmer; 10-14-2012, 01:31 PM.

        Comment

        • SoonerCoug
          Joycelyn Elders Supporter
          • Nov 2008
          • 4680

          #5
          Originally posted by DWhitmer View Post
          Well, I give them credit for leaning more towards the Protestant framework, but deductions for having disregard for the Holy Book of Mormon. In truth, they don't preach it, don't use it, and certainly don't follow it. This is why imo they are shrinking rather than growing, the blessings follow the Holy Book of Mormon.

          There are other denominations that use the Book of Mormon but who don't follow its teachings. The false concept that a church needs an OT priesthood and twelve apostles is not supported by the two New Covenant records - Bible or Holy Book of Mormon.
          You are simply exchanging one form of insanity for another.
          That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

          http://twitter.com/SoonerCoug

          Comment

          • Viking
            Banned
            • Jun 2009
            • 6470

            #6
            Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
            You are simply exchanging one form of insanity for another.
            I wouldn't say it's insane, but it is crazy.

            Jeff, do I get banished now? Will DDD get his fantasy fulfilled (no, not that one!)?

            Comment

            • CardiacCoug
              вот так штука
              • Nov 2008
              • 11013

              #7
              Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
              You are simply exchanging one form of insanity for another.
              I think it's great for people to find something they can embrace wholeheartedly though. On one level none of it is true, but on practical merits I don't believe that all religions are created equal.

              It's funny and obviously not very self-aware the way Mormons celebrate converts to the religion but then can't appreciate it when somebody makes an equally courageous and principled decision to convert to another religion. Tribalism.

              Comment

              • Jeff Lebowski
                Corporate lackey for Jesus
                • Nov 2008
                • 69478

                #8
                Originally posted by Viking View Post
                I wouldn't say it's insane, but it is crazy.

                Jeff, do I get banished now? Will DDD get his fantasy fulfilled (no, not that one!)?
                If you honestly are not intelligent enough to recognize the difference between "it is crazy" and "eat shit" then DDD's fantasy will be fulfilled soon enough.

                Now stop pretending you are being picked on. Nobody's buying it.
                "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                Comment

                • Viking
                  Banned
                  • Jun 2009
                  • 6470

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jeff Lebowski View Post
                  If you honestly are not intelligent enough to recognize the difference between "it is crazy" and "eat shit" then DDD's fantasy will be fulfilled soon enough.

                  Now stop pretending you are being picked on. Nobody's buying it.
                  It's revolting that I am DDD's fantasy.

                  Comment

                  • jay santos
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2008
                    • 13652

                    #10
                    Dwhitmer, it looks like you're on your way to 100 posts. Good job.

                    Comment

                    • DWhitmer
                      Light Years Ahead
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 144

                      #11
                      Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
                      I think it's great for people to find something they can embrace wholeheartedly though. On one level none of it is true.
                      It' crazy how many diligently follow the Mormon path to godhood and yet as soon as they leave college, or possibly their mission, they become atheist. Sad, but there appears to be a pattern.

                      The reason I never left the Holy Book of Mormon is because I had a testimony of it well before my mission. If you don't allow for miracles, angels, God, or the need for a Savior I encourage you to read the Book of Mormon without the filters of Mormonism. It's truly an amazing book.

                      Comment

                      • SoonerCoug
                        Joycelyn Elders Supporter
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 4680

                        #12
                        Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
                        On one level none of it is true, but on practical merits I don't believe that all religions are created equal.
                        Exactly. I'm trying to tell Whitmer that his new beliefs are a mistake because he has ostracized himself from a superior group in favor of a vastly inferior one. I am super proud of the Mormon Church even though I don't believe in it. Truth is irrelevant when it comes to irrational beliefs.

                        Somalia is to the USA what the Church of Christ Temple Lot is to the Mormon Empire. Why would someone want want to affiliate himself with the less successful branches of Latter-day Saintism?

                        Whitmer reminds me of an American guy who defected to the USSR in the early 1980s during perestroika. He said goodbye to America on the Today Show. I remember watching that interview in total disbelief even though I was a young child. I see Whitmer in the very same way.
                        Last edited by SoonerCoug; 10-14-2012, 03:42 PM.
                        That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

                        http://twitter.com/SoonerCoug

                        Comment

                        • DWhitmer
                          Light Years Ahead
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 144

                          #13
                          Originally posted by SoonerCoug View Post
                          Exactly. I'm trying to tell Whitmer that his new beliefs are inferior because he has ostracized himself from a superior group in favor of a vastly inferior one. I am super proud of the Mormon Church even though I don't believe in it. Truth is irrelevant when it comes to irrational beliefs.

                          Somalia is to the USA what the Church of Christ Temple Lot is to the Mormon Empire. Why would someone want want to affiliate himself with the less successful branches of Latter-day Saintism?

                          Whitmer reminds me of an American guy who defected to the USSR in the early 1980s during perestroika. He said goodbye to America on the Today Show. I remember watching that interview with total disbelief even though I was a young child. I see Whitmer in the very same way.
                          You are hypersensitive to the schisms and those who defect to them, I can only imagine who among your family or friends did so. As for those analogies, totally B.S.

                          There is not a single dissenting group that adheres to the BoM, nor am I about to make one.

                          As stated in the OP, J.Smith got off track by starting a church, therefore, any offshoot from said church is no help.

                          "Church" is what Protestants have rightly identified as the "body of believers," therefore I encourage BoM believers who leave Mormonism to find that group of believers God leads them to.

                          As they do that, they are joining that group called Evangelicals and they outnumber Mormons a 100 to 1. It's wonderful to listen to Christian music and claim "those are my people." It's wonderful to read the Reformers as say "those are my people." It's wonderful to got into a Christian bookstore anywhere on earth and say "those are my people."

                          Here's an analogy, leaving Mormonism and embracing Protestantism is like leaving hell and stepping into heaven. How's that one?

                          Comment

                          • SoonerCoug
                            Joycelyn Elders Supporter
                            • Nov 2008
                            • 4680

                            #14
                            Originally posted by DWhitmer View Post
                            Here's an analogy, leaving Mormonism and embracing Protestantism is like leaving hell and stepping into heaven. How's that one?
                            Certifiable.
                            That which may be asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence. -C. Hitchens

                            http://twitter.com/SoonerCoug

                            Comment

                            • Jeff Lebowski
                              Corporate lackey for Jesus
                              • Nov 2008
                              • 69478

                              #15
                              That's a very interesting perspective, DW. Thanks for typing that out. But you might want to avoid statements such as where you claim that the LDS church doesn't follow a single doctrine in the BOM. That is silly and demonstrably false and damages your credibility.

                              By the way, you might be interested in this little discussion we had on the concept of the restoration (start at post #76):





                              I have noted a few times that the BOM represents more of a traditional protestant view of religion compared to the current LDS theology.
                              "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                              "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                              "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                              Comment

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