Two new lawsuits in Utah

[Non Sequitur]

...if you have any belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet at all, you will note that most of the revelations he received were a direct result of him asking a question about something

Or his wife demanding an answer about something.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I have been a scout leader for many, many years. When that kid from Elk Ridge got lost in the Uintah Mountains a few years back, it shook me up terribly and affected how I run things. I am really conservative about where I take the boys and the types of activities we do. And I am a nazi about two-deep leadership. The hell with lawsuits, I just never want to tell a parent that I allowed something terrible to happen to their kid under my care.

[ERCougar]

I thought you lived in Idaho

Lol

[LA Ute]

I have been a scout leader for many, many years. When that kid from Elk Ridge got lost in the Uintah Mountains a few years back, it shook me up terribly and affected how I run things. I am really conservative about where I take the boys and the types of activities we do. And I am a nazi about two-deep leadership. The hell with lawsuits, I just never want to tell a parent that I allowed something terrible to happen to their kid under my care.

Yes. I feel exactly the same way. Every Scout leader's worst nightmare.

Not only do they have a policy, but they have a training that is required for leaders to take and it specifically instructs what to do when there is lightning. There's also a specific training for boating activities.

It's called Safe Swim Defense and is quite good. There's nothing fancy or complex about it -- it's all about simple, common-sense rules that apparently were not followed in the St. George case.

[Bo Diddley]

Very sad occurances.

The possible banning of activities reminds me of the mission field.

While I was on my mission, the Mission President was inspired to ban:

1) Touch football, which always turned to tackle. I had serious doubts about that one being inspired because I participated in the game where an Elder lost two front teeth and the ban came 3 days later.

2) Motorcyle riding & horseback riding also became casualties of inspiration. It was a coincedence the inspiration came after accidents involving these activities.

My first mission president, Ed J Pinegar often said, information before revelation.

[Uncle Ted]

Yes. I feel exactly the same way. Every Scout leader's worst nightmare.

Someday it may get to a point were no one will want to volunteer to be an adult scout leader because of the liability, where the liability will outweigh the rewards.

It's called Safe Swim Defense and is quite good. There's nothing fancy or complex about it -- it's all about simple, common-sense rules that apparently were not followed in the St. George case.

There is also Safety Afloat besides Safe Swim Defense. If this was a scouting activity and the leader had filed a tour permit he would have been required to be current on these for an activity like this before it was approved.

[Moliere]

Someday it may get to a point were no one will want to volunteer to be an adult scout leader because of the liability, where the liability will outweigh the rewards.



There is also Safety Afloat besides Safe Swim Defense. If this was a scouting activity and the leader had filed a tour permit he would have been required to be current on these for an activity like this before it was approved.

I don't get the "it was a church activity, not a scout activity" excuse. If it involves the members of the troop, crew, or team and the leaders then it's a scout activity as much as it is a church activity. It just sounds like an excuse to be lazy.

[LA Ute]

Someday it may get to a point were no one will want to volunteer to be an adult scout leader because of the liability, where the liability will outweigh the rewards.

I'm like Lebowski. I just never wanted to face a kid's parents and tell them their son had been lost while in my charge. I was a maniac about 2-deep and about making sure one leader was always with the slowest of the hikers.

There is also Safety Afloat besides Safe Swim Defense. If this was a scouting activity and the leader had filed a tour permit he would have been required to be current on these for an activity like this before it was approved.

Right! Forgot about that one.

[Uncle Ted]

I'm like Lebowski. I just never wanted to face a kid's parents and tell them their son had been lost while in my charge. I was a maniac about 2-deep and about making sure one leader was always with the slowest of the hikers.



Right! Forgot about that one.

I'm like JL as well. Of course, bad stuff can still happen. I was on a camp out once and the wind came up. It was so strong that I recommended that we move our camp down into a bowl and out of the wind. The next morning we were walking past the old camp and noticed that a huge tree had fallen over and landed exactly where some the boys had their tent before we moved. Given the size of the tree they would have been seriously hurt or even killed. It had never occurred to me that a tree would be blown over into camp when I recommended to the crew that we move. I just wanted to get my tent out of the wind so I wouldn't have to listen to it flap all night and I would a better chance of getting some sleep. The thought of what could have happened seems to constantly haunt me now to the point I am always thinking about potential bad things that might happen during an activity.

[Uncle Ted]

I don't get the "it was a church activity, not a scout activity" excuse. If it involves the members of the troop, crew, or team and the leaders then it's a scout activity as much as it is a church activity. It just sounds like an excuse to be lazy.

Yeah, I don't get that either. How many times have we heard that scouting is the activity arm of the YM's program?

Tour permits can be filed electronically now and it only takes a few minutes to do. In my old district/council they were usually approved (or rejected) within hours (during normal business hours). The tour permit for this activity would have been rejected if the adults didn't have all the training. Of course, in this case there was a huge lack of common sense.

[Eddie]

I don't get the "it was a church activity, not a scout activity" excuse. If it involves the members of the troop, crew, or team and the leaders then it's a scout activity as much as it is a church activity. It just sounds like an excuse to be lazy.

It isn't just lazy - it is to purposefully skirt the scout rules.

I will readily admit that in many ways the scout requirements seem way over the top as far as what is required for safety.

We have a couple of cops in our ward, one who is certified to supervise the range at the PD - but because they don't have the BSA required NRA training certifications they are not considered qualified to run a range when scouts shoot. So if/when our boys have gone shooting, they call it a YM activity rather than a scouting one.

We have a couple of guys who grew up running the snake river outside of Jackson. They've gone down the river several times a summer for the last 15+ years. But they haven't taken the required whitewater training that BSA has - so when they decided to take our boys down the river it suddenly became a YM activity rather than a scouting one.

The same happens with swimming - if you don't have an official BSA trained lifeguard...and the list goes on and on.

I understand BSA not wanting to have to deal with liability. And I'm curious what will happen with these lawsuits. Particularly if the leaders had completed the Hazardous Weather training that is required to even go camping. Will they be able to demonstrate that their responsibility was covered by providing that training for the leaders? Will the leaders then become the targets of a lawsuit? Or could the target even shift to the LDS church - which I don't think would be difficult to prove has a proclivity for flaunting safety rules?

[Moliere]

It isn't just lazy - it is to purposefully skirt the scout rules.

I will readily admit that in many ways the scout requirements seem way over the top as far as what is required for safety.

We have a couple of cops in our ward, one who is certified to supervise the range at the PD - but because they don't have the BSA required NRA training certifications they are not considered qualified to run a range when scouts shoot. So if/when our boys have gone shooting, they call it a YM activity rather than a scouting one.

We have a couple of guys who grew up running the snake river outside of Jackson. They've gone down the river several times a summer for the last 15+ years. But they haven't taken the required whitewater training that BSA has - so when they decided to take our boys down the river it suddenly became a YM activity rather than a scouting one.

The same happens with swimming - if you don't have an official BSA trained lifeguard...and the list goes on and on.

I understand BSA not wanting to have to deal with liability. And I'm curious what will happen with these lawsuits. Particularly if the leaders had completed the Hazardous Weather training that is required to even go camping. Will they be able to demonstrate that their responsibility was covered by providing that training for the leaders? Will the leaders then become the targets of a lawsuit? Or could the target even shift to the LDS church - which I don't think would be difficult to prove has a proclivity for flaunting safety rules?

So how do you just call it a YM activity? Do you proclaim beforehand in front of everyone that it has nothing to do with scouts? Seems like a substance over form issue when you have leaders and boys going on a canoe trip and they are all registered as scouts and the organization you are using to evade the rules is the charteringd organization of your scout group.

[Uncle Ted]

Here is some more information on the boy scout drowning death mentioned in one of the articles above:

Boy Scouts denies responsibility in Utah drowning death

[...]

Christopher and Sherry Tuvell of Las Vegas filed a wrongful death lawsuit against the national organization this summer. Their son David [age 12] was diving with another Scout, a Scoutmaster and a diving instructor on the east side of the lake on July 13, 2011. The Scoutmaster and instructor surfaced, leaving the two boys holding a guide line on the bottom of the lake that led back to shore. When the instructor dove again, the boys apparently had lost hold of the line and were nowhere in sight.

One boy was found and quickly brought to shore. It took searchers another 30 minutes to find David, who was pronounced dead at a local hospital.

Yet another violation of the guide to safe scouting which states, in part:

Each diver under 15 years of age must have an adult buddy certified as an open-water diver who is either the junior diver’s parent or an adult approved by the parent.

[Uncle Ted]

Another boy scout that drowned over the summer that I had heard about:

A 16-year-old Boy Scout from Utah drowned while on an outing with his troop Wednesday at the Grand Canyon National Park.

Kreg Harrison Jr., of St. George, known as KJ to his friends, drowned in a pool at Mooney Falls in Supai Canyon, according to a statement from the Coconino County Sheriff's Office. The incident happened just after 2 p.m.

Kreg was part of the Green Valley 6th Ward Scout Troop 1800. There were 19 boys and 12 adults at the outing, according to the sheriff's office. He and a couple of other boys attempted to swim under the waterfall.

"Investigators describe the pool beneath the falls as about 5 feet deep with a very strong undercurrent beneath and in the immediate area of the falls. The boys saw Kreg struggle and go under the water. One of the other boys attempted to pull Kreg above the water, however the undercurrent was so strong that it almost pulled the second boy under as well," according to the statement.

A doctor who was with the group attempted CPR but could not revive him. Two other boys who were with Kreg became trapped behind the waterfall and the others had to make a human chain to pull them to safety.