How is John Dehlin so much smarter than God who knows everything?

[Goatnapper'96]

That's nonsense.

Unless you can read his mind or have some other sort of evidence, you couldn't possibly know that. Now if you want to turn it around and say that there is a possibility that it might be a motivation, you might have a leg to stand on.

Of course, I could do the same thing and assume that virtually all of the general authorities of the church are in it for the fat paychecks, power, demigod status, and free Toyotas. Any other conclusion is "not defensible", eh?

Toyotas? That's the last freaking straw!

Personally, I think it is the witty stories of the obsequious Stake President families with whom they stay on their visits to the Stakes of Zion!

[Jeff Lebowski]

That makes me laugh. We all have folks that we really respect and with whose spiritual perspectives or work we strongly identify. The only thing we all have in common is our sudden discomfort when the motivations of those with whose work or movements we identify are scrutinized and/or questioned. It reminds me of politicians. Even politicians distrust other politicians but we all trust ourselves.

The only cool way to be is to believe nothing and nobody but internally we are wired for some type of religion.

I am going to assume you are directing this at me and remind you that a month or two ago I was the one most critical of Dehlin for the Daniel Peterson/Maxwell Institute fiasco. I am most certainly not a Dehlin fanboy.

[Moliere]

That's nonsense.

Unless you can read his mind or have some other sort of evidence, you couldn't possibly know that. Now if you want to turn it around and say that there is a possibility that it might be a motivation, you might have a leg to stand on.

Of course, I could do the same thing and assume that virtually all of the general authorities of the church are in it for the fat paychecks, power, demigod status, and free Toyotas. Any other conclusion is "not defensible", eh?

Fine, I'm cynical.

Once you start drawing a significant paycheck from a source (and to most people $40K is significant, although it sounds like it's chump change to you) you lose independence in matters like this. All I'm pointing out is that he depends on MoSto for his livelihood and that MoSto is best positioned with a board and leader that are members of the church. I bet if he left the church that his following would change dramatically. In fact, from what I understand he's worked hard to purge his following groups of people that take hardline exmo positions on issues.

If have thoughts on your second paragraph but I don't feel like sharing them.

[Danimal]

I think Dehlin is in a very tough spot with his relationship with the church. Not only is MS his income (he's otherwise just a grad student) but he has shaped his life and career around this work. He left his job to go back to school and become a psychologist with expertise in this area. If he leaves the church he loses credibility with much of the MS crowd and his income as well as his career - at least in the niche that he set out for. His whole life revolves around maintaining credibility with the church. None of these preclude that he's completely sincere but there is a lot to lose.

[Moliere]

I think Dehlin is in a very tough spot with his relationship with the church. Not only is MS his income (he's otherwise just a grad student) but he has shaped his life and career around this work. He left his job to go back to school and become a psychologist with expertise in this area. If he leaves the church he loses credibility with much of the MS crowd and his income as well as his career - at least in the niche that he set out for. His whole life revolves around maintaining credibility with the church. None of these preclude that he's completely sincere but there is a lot to lose.

Welcome to the cynical club!

[wuapinmon]

I don't get the nefarious vibe from Dehlin. I don't know him personally, but in our email exchanges, he seems sincere. Certainly he has his motivations, but I think he's not a charlatan and mostly wants to help people.

[jay santos]

To those that think Dehlin's motivations are financially motivated and that he's not sincere...

Let's assume you're right and his actions are totally motivated by finances and he is completely insincere.

If he were to change and the financial motivation wer removed, and his actions became sincere, and motivated by what we would consider more pure intentions, how would his actions be different? What would he do differently?

[Moliere]

To those that think Dehlin's motivations are financially motivated and that he's not sincere...

Let's assume you're right and his actions are totally motivated by finances and he is completely insincere.

If he were to change and the financial motivation wer removed, and his actions became sincere, and motivated by what we would consider more pure intentions, how would his actions be different? What would he do differently?

I'm not sure this description fits anyone on this board.

[jay santos]

I'm not sure this description fits anyone on this board.

Oh wow. So are why talking about this?

edit: it seems Danimal is suggesting this and you clearly gave him a high five for it! Or at least theorizing. so we can talk in the theoretical, if you don't think it's the actual case.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm not sure this description fits anyone on this board.

[Danimal]

To those that think Dehlin's motivations are financially motivated and that he's not sincere...

Let's assume you're right and his actions are totally motivated by finances and he is completely insincere.

If he were to change and the financial motivation wer removed, and his actions became sincere, and motivated by what we would consider more pure intentions, how would his actions be different? What would he do differently?

I think he's sincere. I just think he has more to lose than most if he leaves the church because his whole life and career are so tied to MS.

[Indy Coug]

The perils of Priestcraft?

[jay santos]

All of a sudden no one wants to admit they think Delhin has financial motives.

Anyway, I think the issue here on why he stays vs leaving (assuming it's not financially motivated) is one of reform vs quitting.

He is a reformer. Reformers want to influence an organization not leave it.

I think he sees the good in the church an the value in staying, but he sees some things that are wrong that he wants to change.

[Indy Coug]

All of a sudden no one wants to admit they think Delhin has financial motives.

Anyway, I think the issue here on why he stays vs leaving (assuming it's not financially motivated) is one of reform vs quitting.

He is a reformer. Reformers want to influence an organization not leave it.

I think he sees the good in the church an the value in staying, but he sees some things that are wrong that he wants to change.

I think there is a distinct possibility that he has personal finances as one of his motives. I'm not going to attempt to assign probabilities because I don't follow this as closely as most of you and because I honestly don't care that much.

[Danimal]

All of a sudden no one wants to admit they think Delhin has financial motives.

Anyway, I think the issue here on why he stays vs leaving (assuming it's not financially motivated) is one of reform vs quitting.

He is a reformer. Reformers want to influence an organization not leave it.

I think he sees the good in the church an the value in staying, but he sees some things that are wrong that he wants to change.

I think he would probably be willing to cut ties more with the church if his whole life wasn't built around it. It's not just his income it's his future career. It's not that he's a charlatan. I just think he would not go to such efforts to straddle the fence.