How is John Dehlin so much smarter than God who knows everything?

[grapevine]

In his symposiaum told why he stayed. But God was wrong to ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Cursed Job for sport, sent his son instead of coming down himself, People are in a Celestial lottery, Only a small percentage of the world is in the lds church. Widows mite is being used for shopping center, Exclusive truth claim.

Several problems there God always commands what to do is right though you don't understand until after why. He cannot do what is in the best interest of his children, and people have to pass tests in order to endure tell exaltation.

All of the shopping center was paid by for business profits which a certian percentage goes to charity. Did he listen to conference on that? Like it would releave suffering anyway as that did beutify the city and will help many people with employment and goods. Spoonfeeding does not help anyone and the church investst thousands of dollars in relieving human suffering and making it so they keep from suffering. Besides the widows mite the Lord relieves suffering of those that pay tithing. The widow in Zepherenth feeding Elisha first that won't make sense from a mortal standpoint. Neither does spit and washing your eyes to see.

Exclusive truth. Can the law of when water freezes or gravity be changed by human wishes why is the Law of God any diffrent. Do we persecute those that don't have all the truth yet? Just correct there views on trinity the fall and baptism.

Lucifer thought he had a better idea than God, and were did it get him? An all powerful and all knowing God those that think they are smarter were does it get them? Israelites wanting a king, the lost manuscript, Korah in OT against Moses and Korihor.

Thing is the spirit will not shed doubt on people about the gospel or tell people to go against there leaders. He is just trying to share doubt or there are some commandments he does not want to keep and uses mormon stories as a ground to share his doubt. He does not fall in revealed line anyway.

He probably cannot go to the temple as some of the questions are on the restoration, current leaders and sympathisizing with apostates. Does not want to leave the church. However Apostasy, Murder, Adulter misbehavior after disfellowshipment good way to get kicked out of church wether you want to or not.

Here is his excuses for not keeping the commandments probably. http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/...stone-2012.pdf

If you go to mormon stories can find it if this link does not work.

[jay santos]

and people have to pass testes in order to endure tell exaltation.

This wasn't a typo, was it?

[CardiacCoug]

I think this is the link you want, Grape.

http://www.mormonstories.org/wp-cont...ntone-2012.pdf

[CardiacCoug]

This was pretty good stuff from Dehlin:

I stay because I do not want to throw away or forget the history, culture, heritage and identity that made me who I am. If you cut a tree down, and try to re-plant it--without its root system— it will not grow. It just dies. And just as a tree needs its root system to grow, I believe that many of us will grow best if we hang on to our heritage and history, our culture, our identity, our social and spiritual roots. Wholesale rejection of my Mormon heritage does not feel healthy – for me, anyway. For me it would feel like cutting off a limb.

I stay because I still love this church. As dysfunctional, as broken and as misguided as it behaves sometimes – it is no more dysfunctional, broken or misguided than I am – if I’m being honest with myself.

I stay because maintaining my membership increases my ability and influence to effect positive change within the church.
I stay because I can’t imagine ever shedding my core Mormon identity, or leaving it behind. I am Mormon, to the bone, and always will be. As Joanna Brooks likes to say, it doesn’t just wash off.

Finally, I stay as perhaps my last, great act of religious faith. I believe – in my heart – that this big, beautiful, and clumsy thing called Mormonism -- that we have loved for so long -- is somehow big enough and strong enough to withstand, welcome, and even embrace doubters, strugglers, and heretics like us--flaws and all.

[The Fourth Nephite]

In his symposiaum told why he stayed. But God was wrong to ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Cursed Job for sport, sent his son instead of coming down himself, People are in a Celestial lottery, Only a small percentage of the world is in the lds church. Widows mite is being used for shopping center, Exclusive truth claim.

Several problems there God always commands what to do is right though you don't understand until after why. He cannot do what is in the best interest of his children, and people have to pass tests in order to endure tell exaltation.

All of the shopping center was paid by for business profits which a certian percentage goes to charity. Did he listen to conference on that? Like it would releave suffering anyway as that did beutify the city and will help many people with employment and goods. Spoonfeeding does not help anyone and the church investst thousands of dollars in relieving human suffering and making it so they keep from suffering. Besides the widows mite the Lord relieves suffering of those that pay tithing. The widow in Zepherenth feeding Elisha first that won't make sense from a mortal standpoint. Neither does spit and washing your eyes to see.

Exclusive truth. Can the law of when water freezes or gravity be changed by human wishes why is the Law of God any diffrent. Do we persecute those that don't have all the truth yet? Just correct there views on trinity the fall and baptism.

Lucifer thought he had a better idea than God, and were did it get him? An all powerful and all knowing God those that think they are smarter were does it get them? Israelites wanting a king, the lost manuscript, Korah in OT against Moses and Korihor.

Thing is the spirit will not shed doubt on people about the gospel or tell people to go against there leaders. He is just trying to share doubt or there are some commandments he does not want to keep and uses mormon stories as a ground to share his doubt. He does not fall in revealed line anyway.

He probably cannot go to the temple as some of the questions are on the restoration, current leaders and sympathisizing with apostates. Does not want to leave the church. However Apostasy, Murder, Adulter misbehavior after disfellowshipment good way to get kicked out of church wether you want to or not.

Here is his excuses for not keeping the commandments probably. http://mormonstories.org/wp-content/...stone-2012.pdf

If you go to mormon stories can find it if this link does not work.

Grapey,

You are totally misquoting him. He didn't say that God was wrong. He said he didn't believe in that type of God that would do those things. There's a big difference.

Some of the stuff attributed to God in the Old Testament is pretty crazy. Some of the stuff in the OT bears little resemblance to the Heavanly Father I'm familiar with from the New Testament and Mormonism. Personally, I'm not sure how well some of the OT is translated and I'm not sure all of it is inspired.

Additionally, I feel sympathetic for John Dehlin or anybody whose faith is being tried. Rather than throwing stones at him, I would rather pick him up and offer encouragement. I believe that's what Christ would do.

[grapevine]

The Old and New Testament has the same author. He is no respector of persons. He knows what is best for his children at certian times so will do what is best at that particular time. There are places in OT people told to forgive and NT seems a bit harsher.

D and C explains many things About the sacrifice that Dehlin does not talk about. Isiah said my thoughts are not your thoughts so we don't understand everything that God requires.

Joseph Smith said that someone that said the leaders of the church are wrong while he himself is rightous is on the road to apostasy. Thing is we are spiritually strengthened by following the people the Lord called to lead us. NOt questioning or following the people that are questioning the brethern.

[UtahDan]

The Old and New Testament has the same author.

Only if we are talking about the JST. Otherwise we are talking about dozens of of people.

[The Fourth Nephite]

The Old and New Testament has the same author. He is no respector of persons. He knows what is best for his children at certian times so will do what is best at that particular time. There are places in OT people told to forgive and NT seems a bit harsher.

D and C explains many things About the sacrifice that Dehlin does not talk about. Isiah said my thoughts are not your thoughts so we don't understand everything that God requires.

Joseph Smith said that someone that said the leaders of the church are wrong while he himself is rightous is on the road to apostasy. Thing is we are spiritually strengthened by following the people the Lord called to lead us. NOt questioning or following the people that are questioning the brethern.

Our own Articles of Faith state we believe the Bible as far as it is translated correctly. I would think that the older a text is, the more it has been translated and re-translated and therefore the OT has a higher chance to be mistranslated.

Even if, hypothetically, every word in the OT is 100% true and accurate, if somebody has a hard time relating to it, or believing it; so what? That's his spiritual journey. Many of us are just trying to find truth and we're all at different levels. If he believes a little differently than you; so what?

I'm not aware that Dehlin is proclaiming himself to be righteous. I don't get that from him. In fact, in his Why I Stay article, he calls himself dysfunctional, broken, or misguided. Also, I could give you many examples of high ranking church officials disagreeing with, and contradicting, other high ranking church officials. It's not that uncommon, although today it is less visible than in the past.

If your testimony is 100% firm, that is FANTASTIC. Not everybody has such a firmness of belief. I can understand those that question or are confronted by info that troubles their faith.

I'm troubled that you are putting words in Dehlin's mouth that he did not utter. You are mis-representing what he said. If you're going to criticize him, at least give him and the board the courtesy of factually criticizing him. Lumping him in with adulterers and murderers is a cheap shot.

Lastly, you said we should follow the people the Lord has called to lead us. To my knowledge, the people the Lord has called to lead us have not disciplined Dehlin. In fact, it appears the people the Lord called to lead us recently squashed an attempt to publish a derogatory article about Dehlin. If the Bretheren aren't going to cast stones at Dehlin, then I think it would be presumptious of us to do so.

Unless, of course, you are without sin. Then it's OK. Cast that mutha!

[grapevine]

Interesting on the JS quote I listened to Dehlins interview with Grant Palmer and Palmer said he was a spiritual person while being critical of JS and other founders of the restoration. Dehlin himself does admit he is not perfect.

As for JST interesting that footnote corrections and the books of Moses and Abraham actually give us a better picture of the truth of what was mistranslated or taken out. Jacob decieving Isaac for the birthright, and Jeremiah and Hosea told not to marry or take the harlot. Nice if we had more info on that.

Moses may have had to govern Isreal stricter at that time. There are times that church discipline is necessary even the loss of membership. Thing is even when that happens and is necessary to actually help the transgressor for the most part people are treated very kind and are helped doing what they need to too come back to fellowship.

Like a parent telling a kid to wash before he comes in. Don't tell them not to come in. But it is necessary to clean up first. Jehovah did tell Moses to stone adulterers, Than in his day present penalty not in force. Dehlin uses Mormon Stories and Sunstone I think to tell about how he views the church.

[Portland Ute]

I'm troubled that you are putting words in Dehlin's mouth that he did not utter. You are mis-representing what he said. If you're going to criticize him, at least give him and the board the courtesy of factually criticizing him. Lumping him in with adulterers and murderers is a cheap shot.

Given the grape has a firm belief in the Old Teste-ment, he needs to re-visit Exodus 20:16.

[ERCougar]

I love grapevine. He is Mormonism, unfiltered. He shoots to pieces all of the 'we don't teach that stuff', 'no one really thinks that', 'that's not doctrine', 'you're in the only ward that spouts that stuff', etc arguments that LA likes to throw out there.

[Pheidippides]

I love grapevine. He is Mormonism, unfiltered. He shoots to pieces all of the 'we don't teach that stuff', 'no one really thinks that', 'that's not doctrine', 'you're in the only ward that spouts that stuff', etc arguments that LA likes to throw out there.

He is the id of the church.

[jay santos]

I love grapevine. He is Mormonism, unfiltered. He shoots to pieces all of the 'we don't teach that stuff', 'no one really thinks that', 'that's not doctrine', 'you're in the only ward that spouts that stuff', etc arguments that LA likes to throw out there.

To be honest, I was pretty closely doctrinally aligned with grapevine as a 22 year old RM.

I believe the church is evolving and the super literal types are becoming fewer, but they're still there. Maybe a change of 70% of active LDS to 20% LDS over the past 40 years.

[Moliere]

I've said it before, but I think part of the reason JD stays Mormon is due to the fact that he maintains his legitimacy in his current project. If he leaves Mormonism, he becomes just another ex-mo, of which there are plenty, however he's positioned himself well as a "fence straddler" (I don't mean that pejoratively) and it's the reason he has a decent following even though his following can have a quick turnover. If he leaves he is sure to not be able to keep his $40K annual salary and free trips to see Broadway shows.

This isn't the only reason, obviously, but it's certainly one of the reasons.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I've said it before, but I think part of the reason JD stays Mormon is due to the fact that he maintains his legitimacy in his current project. If he leaves Mormonism, he becomes just another ex-mo, of which there are plenty, however he's positioned himself well as a "fence straddler" (I don't mean that pejoratively) and it's the reason he has a decent following even though his following can have a quick turnover. If he leaves he is sure to not be able to keep his $40K annual salary and free trips to see Broadway shows.

This isn't the only reason, obviously, but it's certainly one of the reasons.

Ouch. That seems terribly cynical.