Misuse of Church Funds

[Indy Coug]

Rambam, if you want a more productive discussion, then perhaps start by retitling your thread to something other than "Misuse of Church Funds". One suggestion would be "The Discretionary Use of Church Funds". At least pretend to not know for a fact that the church is going to abuse the trust placed in it by its donors that they will appropriately prioritize the allocation of funds.

If the church finances are truly "behind the curtain", how can you be so certain they are being misused? Furthermore, a misuse of church funds on the scale you insinuate is occurring, by extension means you believe that the church leadership isn't seeking, receiving or obeying Divine guidance on what to do with tithes and offerings. Again, how can you be so certain that is the case?

Stop beating around the bush and get to the heart of what your problem really is; which is not about dollars and cents.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I blame the chilling rhetoric.

Another church conspiracy!

[The Rambam]

I never saw anything on the $1 billion overage. Do you have a link with details?

The DesNews first reported a number of $1billion in 2006.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...-a-glance.html

In 2007 the DesNews reported that: "Money for the project is not coming from LDS Church members' tithing donations. City Creek Center is being developed by Property Reserve Inc., the church's real-estate development arm, and its money comes from other real-estate ventures."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...ject.html?pg=2

President Hinckley emphasized this in 2009: "I wish to give the entire Church the assurance that tithing funds have not and will not be used to acquire this property. Nor will they be used in developing it for commercial purposes. Funds for this have come and will come from those commercial entities owned by the Church. These resources, together with the earnings of invested reserve funds, will accommodate this program."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/article...schedule.html#

In 2008 the SLTrib was estimating $1-2billion.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...ckval=GooglePM

In 2009 the DesNews reported "City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...y-on-Main.html

In 2010 the DesNews continued to report that the project would cost $3billion.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...k-project.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...Lake-City.html

At its opening, it was called a $2billion project in the SLTrib.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53...-mall.html.csp
and
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53...-lake.html.csp

KSL reported that the SL Chamber of Commerce said that $5 billion has gone into downtown SLC real estate in the last few years. There have been no other significant projects downtown in the last few years. So people assume the $5 billion is related to CCC.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19428181

The problem is in determining what is part of CCC and what isn't.

For instance, the Church purchased the Walker building (and everything between it and CCC) and wanted to tear it all down and extend CCC another block to the south and put a new tower where the Walker building stands. There was push-back from preservation groups and they left the building standing. Does the purchase of these buildings get added to the CCC number? I'll bet the Church doesn't add them. But others might.

Second, the Church purchased leases in many other buildings to move tenants out of the spaces being demolished to make way for CCC. So the Church has lease-hold interests in millions of square feet of office space downtown that they don't own. Most of this was ultimately not needed or used and the purchase prices wasted. Should these costs be added into the CCC number? Again I'll bet the Church doesn't add it in.

Third, What about the renovated and expanded bomb shelter they did at the same time as City Creek. My contact says it alone was over a billion dollars and can survive a nuclear attack (yes this is hearsay--but do you think they have a bomb shelter under Church HQ for the Prophets? Of course they do). You do know that you can walk underground from the Conference Center to 200 East and 200 South (not the intersection, but to both roads). Should these costs be added in?

So you can see how the project could be valued at anywhere from $2 billion if you only count the cost of the bricks and mortar at the actual CCC shopping center to over $5 billion if you count all the leases, other real estate purchased, and projects such as the new parking and upgrades to the bomb shelter.

In any event, setting aside all speculation. The DesNews started out saying it would be a $1billion+ project ($1.5 was the most commonly cited number) but then reported an insider informed them it was a $3billion project (half way through construction) and they continued to report that number for over a year. I'd call that a pretty big overage on the budget.

[The Rambam]

Dude you need to have more sex.

If this was directed at me, I wholeheartedly concur. Please send your sister over immediately. The good looking one.

[The Rambam]

Rambam, if you want a more productive discussion, then perhaps start by retitling your thread to something other than "Misuse of Church Funds". One suggestion would be "The Discretionary Use of Church Funds". At least pretend to not know for a fact that the church is going to abuse the trust placed in it by its donors that they will appropriately prioritize the allocation of funds.

If the church finances are truly "behind the curtain", how can you be so certain they are being misused? Furthermore, a misuse of church funds on the scale you insinuate is occurring, by extension means you believe that the church leadership isn't seeking, receiving or obeying Divine guidance on what to do with tithes and offerings. Again, how can you be so certain that is the case?

Stop beating around the bush and get to the heart of what your problem really is; which is not about dollars and cents.

After the change in the tithing slips we can now call it the discretionary use of funds. Before the change it was the misuse of funds. This is the whole point of the thread.

If I donate now, I know that they will use the money wherever they damn well please. They have discretion. Previously this wasn't true. Get it?

And we know funds were being misused because they changed the form to legitimize the practice. I agree that we have no idea if the misuse was a big deal or not because we don't know how much and to what end the funds were shifted. It might be a big deal, it might not. I am absolutely not certain.

But the change destroys the efficacy of saying no tithing was used in CCC because now all Church monies are fungible. Do you get this? You have refused to address it so far.

And you get me completely wrong. I believe the core heart of the Church's problems are directly related to its decision to be a wealthy business corporation instead of a humble church of the followers of Christ. Everything from correlation to the Temple cult can be directly traced to money, the love of which is the root of all evil. And if we have learned anything from the modern Church managers, they love to preserve and grow money.

[Indy Coug]

And we know funds were being misused because they changed the form to legitimize the practice.

No, we don't know that.

[byu71]

The church has a billion dollars????

[DrumNFeather]

The church has a billion dollars????

Maybe you CAN take it with you...

[The Rambam]

No, we don't know that.

Wait for the Reuters article.

[DU Ute]

And you get me completely wrong. I believe the core heart of the Church's problems are directly related to its decision to be a wealthy business corporation instead of a humble church of the followers of Christ. Everything from correlation to the Temple cult can be directly traced to money, the love of which is the root of all evil. And if we have learned anything from the modern Church managers, they love to preserve and grow money.

I wish the Church would just lock all the consecrated funds it receives in a vault under the COB and spend its time on something other than prudently managing the widow's mite.

[ERCougar]

Wait for the Reuters article.

Yes, we should.

I have to agree with Indy on this one. You'll get a much more productive discussion by raising the question rather than assuming the negative. You know I love your posts, even if I disagree with some of them, because I admire the passion. They have "flava". But this just feels like an anti-Tex post.

I am very curious to read the Reuters article. And I would also point out that the Church could lay a lot of concerns to rest by opening up its finances. Transparency is always a good thing, IMO.

[Indy Coug]

Wait for the Reuters article.

It doesn't sound like you know what's in the article either, which still means you don't know that the church funds were misused in the past. Of course, we would still have to define what constitutes misuse.

[Coach McGuirk]

It doesn't sound like you know what's in the article either, which still means you don't know that the church funds were misused in the past. Of course, we would still have to define what constitutes misuse.

he has a source. sources are always spot on.

[byu71]

Maybe you CAN take it with you...

There is actually a way to do so. Anyone that wants to take it with them, I will write out a check for all their assets and they can put the check in the coffin with them.

[Moliere]

The DesNews first reported a number of $1billion in 2006.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...-a-glance.html

In 2007 the DesNews reported that: "Money for the project is not coming from LDS Church members' tithing donations. City Creek Center is being developed by Property Reserve Inc., the church's real-estate development arm, and its money comes from other real-estate ventures."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/6...ject.html?pg=2

President Hinckley emphasized this in 2009: "I wish to give the entire Church the assurance that tithing funds have not and will not be used to acquire this property. Nor will they be used in developing it for commercial purposes. Funds for this have come and will come from those commercial entities owned by the Church. These resources, together with the earnings of invested reserve funds, will accommodate this program."

http://www.ldschurchnews.com/article...schedule.html#

In 2008 the SLTrib was estimating $1-2billion.

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...ckval=GooglePM

In 2009 the DesNews reported "City Creek Reserve is spending more than $1 million a day on construction, and the project ultimately will cost around $3 billion, said Chris Redgrave, a KSL executive who also chairs the Salt Lake Chamber's Can-Do Coalition, which is looking for ways to jump-start the downtown economy."

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...y-on-Main.html

In 2010 the DesNews continued to report that the project would cost $3billion.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...k-project.html
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7...Lake-City.html

At its opening, it was called a $2billion project in the SLTrib.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53...-mall.html.csp
and
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53...-lake.html.csp

KSL reported that the SL Chamber of Commerce said that $5 billion has gone into downtown SLC real estate in the last few years. There have been no other significant projects downtown in the last few years. So people assume the $5 billion is related to CCC.

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=19428181

The problem is in determining what is part of CCC and what isn't.

For instance, the Church purchased the Walker building (and everything between it and CCC) and wanted to tear it all down and extend CCC another block to the south and put a new tower where the Walker building stands. There was push-back from preservation groups and they left the building standing. Does the purchase of these buildings get added to the CCC number? I'll bet the Church doesn't add them. But others might.

Second, the Church purchased leases in many other buildings to move tenants out of the spaces being demolished to make way for CCC. So the Church has lease-hold interests in millions of square feet of office space downtown that they don't own. Most of this was ultimately not needed or used and the purchase prices wasted. Should these costs be added into the CCC number? Again I'll bet the Church doesn't add it in.

Third, What about the renovated and expanded bomb shelter they did at the same time as City Creek. My contact says it alone was over a billion dollars and can survive a nuclear attack (yes this is hearsay--but do you think they have a bomb shelter under Church HQ for the Prophets? Of course they do). You do know that you can walk underground from the Conference Center to 200 East and 200 South (not the intersection, but to both roads). Should these costs be added in?

So you can see how the project could be valued at anywhere from $2 billion if you only count the cost of the bricks and mortar at the actual CCC shopping center to over $5 billion if you count all the leases, other real estate purchased, and projects such as the new parking and upgrades to the bomb shelter.

In any event, setting aside all speculation. The DesNews started out saying it would be a $1billion+ project ($1.5 was the most commonly cited number) but then reported an insider informed them it was a $3billion project (half way through construction) and they continued to report that number for over a year. I'd call that a pretty big overage on the budget.

My CPA head hurts after just reading the first article and then seeing you take the $1 billion estimate, which was never made by the church, and then extrapolate that somehow to get to a $1 billion overage.

Listen, I hate the masked financial dealings of the church as much as the next CUFfer and I really, really detest the idea of the church building the CCC, but you'd make an exmo blush with your hard headedness and manipulation of stories and numbers.