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    “In the nineteenth century, the central moral challenge was slavery. In the twentieth century, it was the battle against totalitarianism. We believe that in this century the paramount moral challenge will be the struggle for gender equality around the world.”
    ― Nicholas D. Kristof, Half the Sky: Turning Oppression into Opportunity for Women Worldwide

    The Age of Enlightenment began in the mid-seventeenth century and a case can be made that it was the most influential and far reaching metaphysical movement in the history of the world; indeed, we are still witnessing its potent aftermath as the tide that it launched continues to roll through the Middle East, etc. (a prevailing view these days is that Baruch Spinoza was to the Enlightenment what Paul was to Christianity). In the wake of the Enlightenment, and a but for result of the Enlightenment, came free markets, the dissolution of theocracy and royalty, representative governments, worldwide exploration and settlement (indeed the very impulse for this activity), science and reason replacing faith and mystery and superstition as the predominant public ethos, separation of church and state, the American Republic, the French Revolution, etc., planned parenthood, day cares, and gender and racial equality (such as they are nowadays). Communism, fascism including radical Islam, US Protestantism, Cardinal Ratzinger, Mormonism, the Romantic age, Russian novels, postmodernism, etc., all have occurred more or less in reaction to the Enlightenment.

    Think about this: The LDS patriarchal structure is as much a vestige of the Old World order swept aside by the Enlightenment as were slavery and polygamy, as the priesthood ban. Think about the explanations for it. They require citation to an Old Testament world view that supported every one of the other archaic and barbaric institutions from which the Enlightenment has more or less liberated us. Indeed, monotheism is the one continuous currently operative ancient artifact that still remains in our public culture.

    LDS sexism and misogyny is as indefensible as the priesthood ban. I am not just talking about women being deprived the priesthood and unrestricted access to LDS church leadership. I’m talking about the kind of psychic oppressing delivered even from the pulpit of general conference that leads professional women to feel shamed and diminished and little girls to believe their purpose in life must be subordinate to males in every walk of life except having babies and maintaining a home's culture.

    Actually the sexism and misogyny is much more damaging than the priesthood ban because its effects on women are so much more pervasive and tangible, and there being so many more women than blacks in the church.

    You don’t believe such oppression exists? Think about this. Why are women so muted in their response to the LDS patriarchal structure?

    It's time for a new "revelation" and a new apology and recognition of responsiblity. As to women it's as morally imperative as what is required for blacks. Don't you think?
    Last edited by SeattleUte; 03-05-2012, 11:00 AM.
    When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

    --Jonathan Swift

  • #2
    I wholeheartedly agree.

    The answers given to women today about this are so condescending I can hardly stand it. Damn my liberal arts degree! I used to be SO good at misogyny.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
      I wholeheartedly agree.

      The answers given to women today about this are so condescending I can hardly stand it. Damn my liberal arts degree! I used to be SO good at misogyny.
      Wuap! Here is a sig for you! TKD has succinctly and wittily summarized the whole purpose of a liberal arts education!
      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

      --Jonathan Swift

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
        Wuap! Here is a sig for you! TKD has succinctly and wittily summarized the whole purpose of a liberal arts education!
        Ha! I was waiting for Waup to chime in too.

        I can't find any fault with your intitial post in this thread. I think you are spot on.
        Last edited by Flystripper; 03-05-2012, 11:24 AM.
        Dyslexics are teople poo...

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with SU. I think the Church's attitude towards women is holding it back more than anything else.
          "In conclusion, let me give a shout-out to dirty sex. What a great thing it is" - Northwestcoug
          "And you people wonder why you've had extermination orders issued against you." - landpoke
          "Can't . . . let . . . foolish statements . . . by . . . BYU fans . . . go . . . unanswered . . . ." - LA Ute

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DU Ute View Post
            I agree with SU. I think the Church's attitude towards women is holding it back more than anything else.
            The thing is that this argument doesn't fly with most of the faithful. Including women. They don't think they're being discriminated against. They think this is the way it works in heaven. It is a common belief that this church is patterned after the order of Enoch, or the order of the kingdom of heaven. The way a lot of men and women look at it is, "Look, I get that this SEEMS unfair down here. But we're not concerned with what is fair down here. HIS ways are not our ways. We are simply following the pattern that was established before the world was. We will all understand the wisdom of this when we die."

            Man. Stuff like that dies a slow, painful death. Consider the fact that most General Authorities were raised with this point of view and that most of them probably still maintain it. This could take a while to change. This may never change.

            Comment


            • #7
              I'm largely in agreement SU.

              Fortunately, as active LDS, my girls don't have to rely principally on the church for stereotypical notions of a woman's role, as they have a tremendous role model with my wife who walks the walk of strong, independent woman. :thumbsup:

              Comment


              • #8
                Great post over at the Zelophehad's Daughters blog:

                So what happens when the Washington Post writes, “The LDS Stance on Women,” and contacts a BYU religion professor who explains that women are too spiritual to need the priesthood; women are highly valued in LDS theology because men can’t be exalted without them; women are actually blessed by not having to deal with the responsibility of holding the priesthood; he personally loves and honors his wife, so everything is clearly fine; even though women can’t hold the priesthood, look! they get their very own organization! (under the direction of the priesthood); a woman’s important role is to be a righteous influence on men; LDS theology is liberating for women because of the doctrine of a Heavenly Mother, even though we can’t talk about her because Heavenly Father is protecting her delicate sensibilities; and so forth? Will we get widespread cries of outrage, complaints about the condescension of such comments, a call for the professor in question to be disciplined, a statement from the dean clarifying that these comments do not reflect the teachings at BYU, and hurried responses from the LDS Newsroom?
                "In conclusion, let me give a shout-out to dirty sex. What a great thing it is" - Northwestcoug
                "And you people wonder why you've had extermination orders issued against you." - landpoke
                "Can't . . . let . . . foolish statements . . . by . . . BYU fans . . . go . . . unanswered . . . ." - LA Ute

                Comment


                • #9
                  This is an interesting discussion, let's flesh this out a little bit more:

                  What would the church organization look like in a truly gender-equal capacity?

                  Would you abolish Relief Society, and only have an Elders quorum, since all the women would be Elders? I am hopingassuming that it would sever the tie between Church and Scouts, unless the BSA started admitting girls. Would there still be YM and YW, or just Young Persons? Would 12 YO girls be forced to wear white shirts to pass the sacrament?

                  What about leadership? Would there be designated callings by gender at all (in order to keep equal gender representation in leadership) or how would that work? would there be a designated male counselor and female councelor in lay auxilary presidencies, or would it be left to the spirit to guide? Would there be a mandatory 6 minimum Male Apostle? Most assuredly we would have more women Church Presidents than men because of the life span indiscrepancy between the genders. What would happen when gender-combined lay-ministry presidencies results in an increase in marital infidelity?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The role of women in the church is a major reason why I will never consider taking my daughters to a mormon church. That it played a role in my divorce is an understatement.

                    Kudos to women that seem to thrive in mormonism, my mother and at least one of my sisters, for example. My mother especially is a very strong and highly educated woman. However, I have seen the other side of what these teachings can do to girls and young women and I want far more for my daughters.
                    Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
                    - Howard Aiken

                    Any sufficiently complicated platform contains an ad hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of a functional programming language.
                    - Variation on Greenspun's Tenth Rule

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by atheistcougar View Post
                      The role of women in the church is a major reason why I will never consider taking my daughters to a mormon church. That it played a role in my divorce is an understatement.

                      Kudos to women that seem to thrive in mormonism, my mother and at least one of my sisters, for example. My mother especially is a very strong and highly educated woman. However, I have seen the other side of what these teachings can do to girls and young women and I want far more for my daughters.
                      Most of Mormonism's bad acts are in the past if you ignore its treatment of women. That's the thing that should make consciensious people's blood boil.

                      Nice to have you back, AC.
                      When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.

                      --Jonathan Swift

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by atheistcougar View Post
                        The role of women in the church is a major reason why I will never consider taking my daughters to a mormon church. That it played a role in my divorce is an understatement.

                        Kudos to women that seem to thrive in mormonism, my mother and at least one of my sisters, for example. My mother especially is a very strong and highly educated woman. However, I have seen the other side of what these teachings can do to girls and young women and I want far more for my daughters.
                        Welcome back, stranger. I figured you wouldn't be able to quit us.
                        "There is no creature more arrogant than a self-righteous libertarian on the web, am I right? Those folks are just intolerable."
                        "It's no secret that the great American pastime is no longer baseball. Now it's sanctimony." -- Guy Periwinkle, The Nix.
                        "Juilliardk N I ibuprofen Hyu I U unhurt u" - creekster

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by SeattleUte View Post
                          Most of Mormonism's bad acts are in the past if you ignore its treatment of women. That's the thing that should make consciensious people's blood boil.

                          Nice to have you back, AC.
                          But you can't say there has been no progress:

                          http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfa...ormon.html.csp

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't mean to threadjack, but SoCal residents with an interest in LDS feminism may want to join my wife and me at my BIL/SIL's place in Villa Park two weeks from the Friday. Each month they host the Miller Eccles study group and they usually manage to land some very interesting speakers. This month features Laurel Thatcher Ulrich who is a Pulitzer Prize-winning author and holds a professor's chair at Harvard. She's a member of the Cambridge 1st Ward. I'll be happy to pass along any questions...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by UtahDan View Post
                              But you can't say there has been no progress:

                              http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsfa...ormon.html.csp
                              That article shows a remarkable ignorance of Leviticus 15.
                              "More crazy people to Provo go than to any other town in the state."
                              -- Iron County Record. 23 August, 1912. (http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lc...23/ed-1/seq-4/)

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