Church history, oddly enough, played no part in my "faith crisis"

[woot]

All you apostates and wanna be apostates just want to have an excuse to sin.

[NorthwestUteFan]

All you apostates and wanna be apostates just want to have an excuse to sin.

Please give me a break. Taekwondave is still going to church. That means he is a heretic, not an apostate. Get your terminology correct!

[LiveCoug]

Please give me a break. Taekwondave is still going to church. That means he is a heretic, not an apostate. Get your terminology correct!

I added "wanna be apostate" to my post for a reason!

[NorthwestUteFan]

I added "wanna be apostate" to my post for a reason!

Oops, reading comprehension fail on my part. Dave has attended church once since getting married last summer. You were correct all along!

Joking aside, I enjoyed your post Dave. Thanks for sharing. History is a big deal for me, but for different reasons than would be obvious. Looking into history it is apparent to me that the overwhelming majority of beliefs and teachings of Joseph Smith can be attributed directly to existing, contemporary sources. This made me wonder if Joseph was indeed a prophet in contact with the divine, if he merely amalgamated existing beliefs into his own belief system. In that case were Swedenborg, the writers of Antiquities of Freemasonry and View of the Hebrews, and the local Methodist and Unitarian preachers the 'real' prophets because they generated the 'new' information? I used to laugh at the Laman and Lemuel charactes because they could see an angel or hear the voice of the Lord, but still turn right around and sin. But then Joseph had an affair with Fanny Alger after 'seeing God and Jesus', not to mention receiving countless revelations, so he was no better.

CardiacCoug, you are correct in saying the church pushes and supports good values. But I prefer to think of these good moral values as being endemic to society, while religion supports them. I think it is wrong to think of moral values as existing strictly in the realm of religion, because otherwise it would be impossible to imagine an atheist as having any 'morals'.

[Moliere]

I don't believe you. I'm pretty sure church history plays a part in all faith crisises.....or so I've been led to believe.

[Indy Coug]

What do Mormons believe? They believe in being good spouses, good parents, and making good families. They believe in trying to be Christlike, patient, and generous. They believe in working hard and being self-sufficient. To me, those are the fundamental beliefs.

Since CC probably thinks I disagree with him on everything, I would like to applaud this paragraph.

[CardiacCoug]

CardiacCoug, you are correct in saying the church pushes and supports good values. But I prefer to think of these good moral values as being endemic to society, while religion supports them. I think it is wrong to think of moral values as existing strictly in the realm of religion, because otherwise it would be impossible to imagine an atheist as having any 'morals'.

Sure, I agree. There are wonderful, moral atheists and terribly immoral "religious" con artists.

LDS Church activity isn't for everybody, or even for everybody who was raised in the Church obviously. But to me the question is whether Church activity helps you be a better person or takes you away from being a better person. I don't think the answer is the same for everybody. For some people continuing to be active after their faith crisis just makes them angry and bitter and they are better off leaving.

[taekwondave]

All you apostates and wanna be apostates just want to have an excuse to sin.

Well yeah, there is that.

[CardiacCoug]

Since CC probably thinks I disagree with him on everything, I would like to applaud this paragraph.

[clackamascoug]

Instead of looking long term with regards to religion, take a shorter term, and ask, "What has it done for me lately?"

Enduring to the end is a real problem, and not for the faint of heart. As I get older, the more cynical I become. As I get older, I just don't care as much about anything or anyone. The older I become, I see the local leaders do stuff that turns me off, and makes me question if we're truly participants of the same Gospel.

On the other hand, the older I get, the more I love Sacrament Meeting. Not the same old boring talks, but the abundance of the Spirit. Strangers who are tethered by a weekly meeting, who warmly greet each other. The Sacrament Prayers. The Deacons passing the Sacrament, some with high water pants as they grow like weeds. As I reflect upon the Atonement, and my actions and lack thereof, I'm deeply grateful for help in overcoming the deficiencies in myself. I enjoy watching children grow up before your eyes in weekly increments, year after year. I enjoy the warm brotherhood I have with about 10 men of the same approximate age. We check up on each other and share victories and defeats. I enjoy Priesthood meeting where I'm years past being embarrassed by voicing my opinion, and presenting a broader scope than whats being presented. On occasion I teach the youth in Primary or Sunday School. Recently, a 13 year old girl said... Oh goodie... you're my favorite teacher. When I teach I have 3 goals - let the kids enjoy the lesson, open the scriptures and read the words of Christ, and help them feel the Spirit. The best feeling I'm aware of is Spirit as you teach the youth. I also have found my greatest satisfaction in helping those who are not as fortunate as me. Be it through labor, advice, or money. So many people don't have the tools to swim through life as easily as me, and helping others, helps me as much as more.

What has the Church done for me lately? It gives back to me more than I've ever given it. Regardless of purported truths, or eternal long term consequences, I've put the Church's formula for a happy life to the test, and have found it to be true... at least enough for me and my family.

[Ma'ake]

Dave,

I didn't read Chopra's book, but I'm in essentially the same place as you: I don't need to believe in Jesus to have faith that there's a positive reality beyond this life.

Was/is Jesus *THE* savior for all the world? To my way of thinking, there are billions of souls - human beings, dolphins, whales, neanderthals (whose DNA we evidently have mixed in with our own - does that mean Jesus did, too? He was only here 2000 years ago) monkeys, dogs, maybe even worms - for whom the belief in Jesus likely makes zero difference in their salvation.

Jesus may be on par with Zeus and Thor and whatever deities the Neanderthals believed in. That doesn't mean he's insignificant. It may mean that he's not everything Christian theology suggests.

Living an LDS lifestyle isn't a bad path, either, for those who choose it. For many people it's a really good path, probably not unlike the fulfillment Buddhist monks find. (Ie, really good.)

[ERCougar]

True enough, but it was nonsensical then just as it's nonsensical now. It's also true that that verse must be viewed in the wider context, which shows quite clearly that god is something quite distinct from "love".

Explain?

[UtahDan]

Dave telling people they are broken but that it has the cure is one of the fundamental messages of most religions. It is one of the ways it motivates people, though not the best way IMO. I don't believe that the idea that there is something wrong with us is necessary for us to become better people.

http://secondgospelofmatthew.wordpre...-were-all-bad/

[woot]

Explain?

I just mean that both the old and new testaments describe god as a being with emotions and desires, who has a voice, who makes plans and acts according to them. "God is love" can only be true if used as a very loose metaphor for only limited aspects of such a being.