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Church history, oddly enough, played no part in my "faith crisis"

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  • Church history, oddly enough, played no part in my "faith crisis"

    For me it was Deepak Chopra. Deepak Chopra made me apostatize

    No, but seriously, he kinda did. I read his book, The Tree of Knowledge. It presented a new way of looking at the garden of eden story than I had previously considered. As I examined the implications of that reading I felt a weight lifted from my conscience and I felt... free. I already knew all that historical stuff that causes so many to have a crisis of faith in the church but it hadn't affected me. I didn't need the church or its leaders to be perfect in order for the message to be true. But until I read that book, my happiness and self worth as a member has always seemed dependent on my behavior. After reading that book that seemed silly. I abandoned the idea that man was fallen and imperfect and accepted the idea that man THOUGHT he was fallen and imperfect, and as a man thinketh...

    Salvation from the fall was as simple as realizing the fall never happened. I came to believe that this was Christ's doctrine: not that he came to save us from something that really happened but to save us from thinking that something that didn't happen actually did. Obviously this changed the way I looked at his life, his teachings, his death, etc. And although my new interpretation of Jesus offends most people--they believing that I am short-changing him somehow--to the contrary, I have come to love and appreciate Jesus of Nazareth more than I ever did under my old premises.

    In other words, for me, the issue was never Joseph Smith or Brigham, salamander this or plural wives that. It was much more fundamental than that. My issue was with the fundamentals of judeo-christianity as a whole--its interpretation of the myth of Adam and Eve--and not anything to do with the other basics of Mormonism, which I have always been perfectly fine with, despite being very much aware of everything SU and others have brought up as legitimate reasons for leaving the church. Oh sure, I agree those are perfectly legitimate reasons. They just aren't mine.

    Now, I haven't really "left the church," although my wife and I have only been once since we got married. I realized that with my new belief system, there wasn't really anywhere to run to, so what was the point of running from where I was? I admit my beliefs now sound more atheist than anything, although I kinda consider myself a deist, but what do I care? When my wife finally decides she wants to go back to church (if ever), I'll be totally down. I like making friends and church is a great place to do that. I don't care that I don't agree with ANYTHING they say there; that I no longer believe ANYTHING they believe. I've just come to realize that is kinda the nature of life. We never agree with ANYBODY on everything, so it's all a matter of degrees. When it comes right down to it, love is all that matters to me, and as it says in my favorite non-canonical, pseudopigrapha, The Gospel of the Holy Twelve,

    "That which appeareth true to some, seemeth not true to others. They who are in the valley see not as they who are on the hill top. But to each, it is the Truth as the one mind seeth it, and for that time, till a higher Truth shall be revealed unto the same: and to the soul which receiveth higher light, shall be given more light. Wherefore condemn not others, that ye be not condemned."

  • #2
    Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
    When my wife finally decides she wants to go back to church (if ever), I'll be totally down. I like making friends and church is a great place to do that. I don't care that I don't agree with ANYTHING they say there; that I no longer believe ANYTHING they believe.
    You're a good guy Dave and I think you agree with a lot of things Mormons say and believe.

    What do Mormons believe? They believe in being good spouses, good parents, and making good families. They believe in trying to be Christlike, patient, and generous. They believe in working hard and being self-sufficient. To me, those are the fundamental beliefs.

    You are focusing on the abstract theology here, and that's OK. It's the same thing Bill Maher focuses on and there's a reason for that. But I think the abstract theology is the least important part of the religion and of course totally unknowable.

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    • #3
      chopra is an opportunist blowhard
      Te Occidere Possunt Sed Te Edere Non Possunt Nefas Est.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
        You're a good guy Dave and I think you agree with a lot of things Mormons say and believe.

        What do Mormons believe? They believe in being good spouses, good parents, and making good families. They believe in trying to be Christlike, patient, and generous. They believe in working hard and being self-sufficient. To me, those are the fundamental beliefs.

        You are focusing on the abstract theology here, and that's OK. It's the same thing Bill Maher focuses on and there's a reason for that. But I think the abstract theology is the least important part of the religion and of course totally unknowable.
        Well said, CC.
        I'm like LeBron James.
        -mpfunk

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        • #5
          Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
          You're a good guy Dave and I think you agree with a lot of things Mormons say and believe.

          What do Mormons believe? They believe in being good spouses, good parents, and making good families. They believe in trying to be Christlike, patient, and generous. They believe in working hard and being self-sufficient. To me, those are the fundamental beliefs.

          You are focusing on the abstract theology here, and that's OK. It's the same thing Bill Maher focuses on and there's a reason for that. But I think the abstract theology is the least important part of the religion and of course totally unknowable.
          Your post made me think of Dennis Prager talking about theology vs. values. He often says when judging a religion, or when deciding who to vote for, values are much more important than theology. He has used this as a jumping off point for questioning why conservative Christians have a problem voting for a Mormon is recent weeks.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by CardiacCoug View Post
            You're a good guy Dave and I think you agree with a lot of things Mormons say and believe.

            What do Mormons believe? They believe in being good spouses, good parents, and making good families. They believe in trying to be Christlike, patient, and generous. They believe in working hard and being self-sufficient. To me, those are the fundamental beliefs.

            You are focusing on the abstract theology here, and that's OK. It's the same thing Bill Maher focuses on and there's a reason for that. But I think the abstract theology is the least important part of the religion and of course totally unknowable.
            You're right. That was a bit hyperbo...lous (I'm a senior in english I should know this by now)?

            I just disagree with... the do...ctrine? gma? Guess it depends on your definition of doctrine vs. dogma. But yes, I believe MANY things that Mormons believe. But outside of CUF, not many active Mormons who have heard my views consider me a Mormon, given that I don't believe at all in the creation/fall/atonement the way they do. I don't care though. I like Mormons. I like being one. Even if I don't sound like one.

            I sure look like one
            Last edited by taekwondave; 02-08-2012, 09:29 AM.

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            • #7
              Deepak Chopra is an ignorant buffoon who deliberately allows himself to be misinterpreted by Christians so that they'll believe that his pseudo-science backs up their beliefs. In actuality, his concept of god is basically deistic, and his believes are just as antagonistic to Christian dogma as anything.

              But I'm another one whose apostasy wasn't really affected by the church's history. I didn't even learn about a lot of the issues until after I was gone. Other than diving into anti literature for a few months at the beginning of my mission (my testimony was rock solid, so it was a great time to do that), I haven't ever read any.

              I simply stopped believing in god, which sort of obviates the idea of prophets, scriptures, etc.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by camleish View Post
                chopra is an opportunist blowhard
                I actually agree with this. Truth can come at you from funny angles sometimes (if what I have come to believe is true at all).

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by woot View Post
                  Deepak Chopra is an ignorant buffoon who deliberately allows himself to be misinterpreted by Christians so that they'll believe that his pseudo-science backs up their beliefs. In actuality, his concept of god is basically deistic, and his believes are just as antagonistic to Christian dogma as anything.

                  But I'm another one whose apostasy wasn't really affected by the church's history. I didn't even learn about a lot of the issues until after I was gone. Other than diving into anti literature for a few months at the beginning of my mission (my testimony was rock solid, so it was a great time to do that), I haven't ever read any.

                  I simply stopped believing in god, which sort of obviates the idea of prophets, scriptures, etc.
                  Probably why I like him so much. I also am a bit of a buffoon

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by woot View Post
                    Deepak Chopra is an ignorant buffoon who deliberately allows himself to be misinterpreted by Christians so that they'll believe that his pseudo-science backs up their beliefs. In actuality, his concept of god is basically deistic, and his believes are just as antagonistic to Christian dogma as anything.

                    But I'm another one whose apostasy wasn't really affected by the church's history. I didn't even learn about a lot of the issues until after I was gone. Other than diving into anti literature for a few months at the beginning of my mission (my testimony was rock solid, so it was a great time to do that), I haven't ever read any.

                    I simply stopped believing in god, which sort of obviates the idea of prophets, scriptures, etc.
                    Actually, I think I'm closer to this. I can't imagine the God that the Mormons believe in--an anthropomorphic one, and I definitely don't believe in the one other Christians do, which seems completely contradictory in all its definitions. I'm kind of that new-age, "god is love and love is god" kind of thinking. I just think that asking the question, "what would love do?" is the greatest key to wisdom I've ever found (although I am far from wise). Love, wisdom, truth, peace, harmony, whatever you want to call it. That's my god. Oh sure, I fail in my worship of it on a regular basis, just like anybody else. But not seeing it as this being that gets angry or disappointing has been much more conducive to improving my conduct than my former model ever seemed to be. I've heard many atheists make this claim themselves, and I never believed them when I was operating under my old model, but I get it now. Or at least I get how that's possible.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by taekwondave View Post
                      Actually, I think I'm closer to this. I can't imagine the God that the Mormons believe in--an anthropomorphic one, and I definitely don't believe in the one other Christians do, which seems completely contradictory in all its definitions. I'm kind of that new-age, "god is love and love is god" kind of thinking. I just think that asking the question, "what would love do?" is the greatest key to wisdom I've ever found (although I am far from wise). Love, wisdom, truth, peace, harmony, whatever you want to call it. That's my god. Oh sure, I fail in my worship of it on a regular basis, just like anybody else. But not seeing it as this being that gets angry or disappointing has been much more conducive to improving my conduct than my former model ever seemed to be. I've heard many atheists make this claim themselves, and I never believed them when I was operating under my old model, but I get it now. Or at least I get how that's possible.
                      That's not new age - that's John 4:8 -

                      He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
                      "I think it was King Benjamin who said 'you sorry ass shitbags who have no skills that the market values also have an obligation to have the attitude that if one day you do in fact win the PowerBall Lottery that you will then impart of your substance to those without.'"
                      - Goatnapper'96

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pelado View Post
                        That's not new age - that's John 4:8 -
                        Again, I stand corrected. But you will agree when I say this doctrine alone does not suffice for most mormons. This alone will not get you to heaven. You need the ordinances for that.

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                        • #13
                          hyperbolic.

                          (my contribution)
                          "I'm anti, can't no government handle a commando / Your man don't want it, Trump's a bitch! I'll make his whole brand go under,"

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                          • #14
                            All you apostates and wanna be apostates just want to have an excuse to sin.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Pelado View Post
                              That's not new age - that's John 4:8 -
                              True enough, but it was nonsensical then just as it's nonsensical now. It's also true that that verse must be viewed in the wider context, which shows quite clearly that god is something quite distinct from "love".

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