The problem with LDS apologetics

[creekster]

what sort of substantial evidence is there that no sexual activity has taken place between two people? A denial? A lack of accusation?

I already said I don't know. My recollection (and I haven't looked this up so could be wildly wrong) is that we have journals from the girl and her father and the timing compared to Joseph's known activities suggests that Joseph wasn't that available in the pertinent time frame.

I doubt that any of these liaisons can be proven one way or the other to a reasonable degree of medical certainty. As you well know, all of the evidence is probably going to be circumstantial or hearsay. We are only dealing in probabilities for almost all of it. Even so, it is my understanding that those that have spent a great deal of time looking at this concluded that the marriage with Kimball was not consummated sexually.

[SloanHater]

Thanks for that. I know you're trying to pin the troll anit-lds label on me .... whatever.

There are a lot of things that are puzzling about the LDS Faith that aren't easily explainable ... Mountain Meadow Massacre, Dinosaurs, etc. It doesn't distract from my beliefs in the truthfulness of the restored gospel, it's just another thing to add to the list of strange things that we don't know the entire truth about.

I thought J.S. marrying a 14 yr. old was an interesting not widely known fact and simply commented on it. My first foray into the religious side of this message board. I guess I'll stick to sports.

You really didn't know Joseph was sealed/married to teenage girls? My bad.

[TripletDaddy]

I already said I don't know. My recollection (and I haven't looked this up so could be wildly wrong) is that we have journals from the girl and her father and the timing compared to Joseph's known activities suggests that Joseph wasn't that available in the pertinent time frame.

I doubt that any of these liaisons can be proven one way or the other to a reasonable degree of medical certainty. As you well know, all of the evidence is probably going to be circumstantial or hearsay. We are only dealing in probabilities for almost all of it. Even so, it is my understanding that those that have spent a great deal of time looking at this concluded that the marriage with Kimball was not consummated sexually.

I agree. unless a child was involved, of course. If they had a baby, then I will go ahead and assume sexual activity.

[UtahDan]

I am not well read on this, but my understanding is that the evidence is somewhat more substantial than that.

I don't think there really is evidence either way as to this specific marriage. Most of the speculation comes from trying make inferences based on other circumstantial evidence. Polygamy and polyandry were "underground" in Nauvoo. Joseph denied being involved in it publicly at a point where had over 30 wives. They didn't talk about it, they didn't write about it, they left very little contemporaneous evidence of it (which has led some people to argue that the evidence that came later was BY's concoction). As I recall the journal of Eliza R. Snow who was clearly as plural wife of Joseph's contains nothing of their wedding day other than something general about it being an especially nice day or some such.

Now there is plenty of specific evidence that was recorded in the relative safety of Utah that points the sexual nature of the relationships, or many of them. Thirteen of his wives made affidavits saying they had sex with him and there is evidence of others from faithful sources. Certainly there were a lot of accusations of that nature made by apostates and opponents of Joseph at the time this was all going on and he was under a great deal of heat for his unorthodox sexual practices for a lot of his adult life.

One reason to at least wonder about Helen Mar Kimball (though again, far from conclusive) is a point Compton makes in his book:

In the group of Smith's well-documented wives, eleven (33 percent) were 14 to 20 years old when they married him. Nine wives (27 percent) were twenty-one to thirty years old. Eight wives (24 percent) were in Smith's own peer group, ages thirty-one to forty. In the group aged forty-one to fifty, there is a substantial drop off: two wives, or 6 percent, and three (9 percent) in the group aged fifty-one to sixty.

The teenage representation is the largest, though the twenty-year and thirty-year groups are comparable, which contradicts the Mormon folk-wisdom that sees the beginnings of polygamy was an attempt to care for older, unattached women. These data suggest that sexual attraction was an important part of the motivation for Smith's polygamy. In fact, the command to multiply and replenish the earth was part of the polygamy theology, so non-sexual marriage was generally not in the polygamous program, as Smith taught it.

[SloanHater]

Evidence of lack of sexual relationship: Helen Kimball lived with her parents.

oh, brother.

There isn't any way to confirm lack of sexual activity. There are only slightly more ways to confirm actual sexual activity.

What we do know definitely is that he married a 14 year old girl.

This is such a stupid post. I never said that the living arrangement excluded sexual activity. I simply pointed out that she remained at home with her parents.

Not surprising that you're illiterate on the subject. Helen and her family state that Helen had little to no contact with Joseph after the marriage.

[TripletDaddy]

This is such a stupid post. I never said that the living arrangement excluded sexual activity. I simply pointed out that she remained at home with her parents.

why would you point out that she continued to live with her parents? what is the relevance?

Not surprising that you're illiterate on the subject. Helen and her family state that Helen had little to no contact with Joseph after the marriage.

lol. when then that settles it, doesn't it. Joseph denied having plural wives during that same time period. So I guess that must be true, too.

[scottie]

I can't tell if there's a hang up here over whether his marriage to Helen Kimball was consummated or if he consummated any of them. If the former, I'm curious why the HK consummation/non-consummation is being singled out.

I've posted this on CUF before, but The Preface of The Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, V. 1 (I have a copy of it) reads, "The Joseph Smith Papers are being prepared under the auspices of the office of the historian of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and published by The Church Historian's Press." I share that in case you're not familiar with the Papers or question who signed off on the content of the publication. In the General Introduction section, page "XXX," it reads, "During his lifetime, he was married to approximately thirty women. Although conjugal relations were apparently involved, he spent little time with these women, the need for secrecy and the demands on his time keeping them apart."

I don't think it's a stretch at all to presume that the only way higher-ups at the COB would allow the statement I bolded to be published is if they have in their possession evidence to back it up, else why make that statement? For those who don't have the book, trust that I'm not taking the above out of context; it doesn't later say anything like "The apparent conjugal relations were only with the non-polyandrous wives" -- the reference to conjugal relations comes immediately after the reference to ~30 wives.

[TripletDaddy]

I can't if there's a hang up here over whether his marriage to Helen Kimball was consummated or if he consummated any of them. If the former, I'm curious why the HK consummation/non-consummation is being singled out.

I've posted this on CUF before, but The Preface of The Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, V. 1 (I have a copy of it) reads, "The Joseph Smith Papers are being prepared under the auspices of the office of the historian of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and published by The Church Historian's Press." I share that in case you're not familiar with the Papers or question who signed off on the content of the publication. In the General Introduction section, page "XXX," it reads, "During his lifetime, he was married to approximately thirty women. Although conjugal relations were apparently involved, he spent little time with these women, the need for secrecy and the demands on his time keeping them apart."

I don't think it's a stretch at all to presume that the only way higher-ups at the COB would allow the statement I bolded to be published is if they have in their possession evidence to back it up, else why make that statement? For those who don't have the book, trust that I'm not taking the above out of context; it doesn't later say anything like "The apparent conjugal relations were only with the non-polyandrous wives" -- the reference to conjugal relations comes immediately after the reference to ~30 wives.

SloanHater is obviously illiterate on this subject.

[UtahDan]

It's been a while since we had a good polygamy discussion!

[creekster]

I can't if there's a hang up here over whether his marriage to Helen Kimball was consummated or if he consummated any of them. If the former, I'm curious why the HK consummation/non-consummation is being singled out.

I've posted this on CUF before, but The Preface of The Joseph Smith Papers, Journals, V. 1 (I have a copy of it) reads, "The Joseph Smith Papers are being prepared under the auspices of the office of the historian of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and published by The Church Historian's Press." I share that in case you're not familiar with the Papers or question who signed off on the content of the publication. In the General Introduction section, page "XXX," it reads, "During his lifetime, he was married to approximately thirty women. Although conjugal relations were apparently involved, he spent little time with these women, the need for secrecy and the demands on his time keeping them apart."

I don't think it's a stretch at all to presume that the only way higher-ups at the COB would allow the statement I bolded to be published is if they have in their possession evidence to back it up, else why make that statement? For those who don't have the book, trust that I'm not taking the above out of context; it doesn't later say anything like "The apparent conjugal relations were only with the non-polyandrous wives" -- the reference to conjugal relations comes immediately after the reference to ~30 wives.

You think the 'higher ups' have some evidence that is qualitatively different than that relied on by those who have written books that are now in the public domain?

I have read the volume you quote. But the statement that conjugal relations were apparently involved is certainly not determinative as to HMK, right? Other than the fact that HMK was 14 and was referenced in this thread as a result I am not sure there is any reason she is or should be singled out.

[creekster]

It's been a while since we had a good polygamy discussion!

You think this is good?

[scottie]

You think the 'higher ups' have some evidence that is qualitatively different than that relied on by those who have written books that are now in the public domain?

Yes, I think so.

I have read the volume you quote. But the statement that conjugal relations were apparently involved is certainly not determinative as to HMK, right? Other than the fact that HMK was 14 and was referenced in this thread as a result I am not sure there is any reason she is or should be singled out.

Correct.

[UtahDan]

You think this is good?

I think it is fascinating on its own merits, so yes. Also, look how much SloanHater is learning.

[ERCougar]

You think the 'higher ups' have some evidence that is qualitatively different than that relied on by those who have written books that are now in the public domain?

I have read the volume you quote. But the statement that conjugal relations were apparently involved is certainly not determinative as to HMK, right? Other than the fact that HMK was 14 and was referenced in this thread as a result I am not sure there is any reason she is or should be singled out.

Yeah, other than that...
Move along, nothing to see here!

[SloanHater]

why would you point out that she continued to live with her parents? what is the relevance?

lol. when then that settles it, doesn't it. Joseph denied having plural wives during that same time period. So I guess that must be true, too.

I added the information for illiterates like you and to clarify that the sealing to Helen was a formality. To highlight that there was no change in her living situation.

Of course he could have had secret liaisons. I'm simply contributing evidence which is more than you've ever contributed to a discussion.