exmo.com comes to WashPo

[scottie]

Sure; thats the part about finding what you think is good and clinging to it. That's what I am doing. You may reach a different decision. But I know one thing with certainty: if whatever you or anyone ends up believing in involves humans it will fall far short of perfection.

I guess I was a little surprised by your "... I just cant wrap my mind around ... " comment.

[UtahDan]

Don't you think this could be/is the case for someone who has left the church as well? UD and I talk all the time of having kind of a healthy nuanced view of the church if you are in and staying in...but how healthy can it be to be out and then dig your heels in on being out to the point of obsession? In other words...swallowing all of the negative and being an active detractor...I don't know, that seems like an equally unhealthy way to live your life.

What would doing that look like?

[Pheidippides]

Understood. I didnt mean to criticize those who feel the need. I have tried very hard to grasp what the MoSto group is feeling. I have watched videos of one of their conferences and I recently even listened to a podcast or two (well, one and a half). I even spent some time talking to someone who is pretty immersed in the group. And try as I might, I just dont get it. Undoubtedly this is me and not them, and I wish them well, but it escapes me completely.

Oh, I was mostly agreeing with you. This has been a change of the last couple of months for me. I listened to numerous podcasts, etc., and a lot of them (not all by any means) just boiled down to bitching about one thing or another. I spent most of 2011 bitching and the religious portion of my life was not fun or happy.

And then my wife, bless her soul, asked me if I wanted to start church and religion shopping. And then I realized (obviously) that I have the simple choice of staying or leaving. And I chose to stay for many reasons, although there were many reasons to leave too. And when I made that choice I also made the choice to stop bitching all the time. I gripe about stuff now and again with my wife - just like I do with work or my kids' school or the DMV or whatever - but I don't dwell on the bitchiness. Vent, be done, be happy.

The last two months I've felt religiously as good as I have in many years. And not one thing changed, save my constant bitching.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Maybe. Hard to say without some serious speculation and without accepting the premise that there is zero divine guidance.

But in this case you are operating under the assumptions that a) divine guidance exists, and b) the prophet usually follows and reveals this guidance. I don't necessarily dispute those assumptions, but have to recognize that the bias for them exists.
(FTR, I have listened to many of the MoSto podcasts and enjoy them. But I do not immediately take them all to be the unvarnished truth - I shouldn't be pigenholed as a card-carrying member of the MoSto crowd. I no longer believe many things the church claims but I still go to church every week and have a TR, despite having to hold my tongue in GD and EQ class).

For all the wonderful feelings the BOM gives me (despite concerns about its origination and possible use of existing source documents), the history surrounding the Books of Abraham and Moses cast some serious doubts on the better 'fruits' by which we shall know them.

Either way I do not know whether it is possible to dispassionately review the ROSES and the THORNS and come away with a completely objective determination, one way or the other. It can neither be a logical decision nor a passionate one.

Sure; thats the part about finding what you think is good and clinging to it. That's what I am doing. You may reach a different decision. But I know one thing with certainty: if whatever you or anyone ends up believing in involves humans it will fall far short of perfection.

Same here. And this 'clinging to the good' ideology is why I mentioned D.O.McKay. Much of the 'good' things I like about the modern church came from him (and from several of his successors).

[UtahDan]

I guess. Sure many people believe some of those things and some people believe many of those things, but I am not sure I know anyone who believes all of those things. And I really doubt that anyone with any life experience could believe all of those things. I think he was making a point but not being literal.

That could be. And I don't think anyone thinks all of that either.

As to your second point, that seems rather presumptuous for you to implicitly assert that you know the actual reason people leave. I don’t think it is a canard for all cases. You will have a better sense of whether it is for those persons with whom you associate, but I doubt you can reasonably draw the same conclusion for everyone.

It is not any more presumptuous of me to say that it is not over silly things than it is for others to assert that it is. I'm wasn't asserting what was true for everyone, just that the generalization Carl doesn't do justice to the to the reality I know. And while it is certainly self selecting, I've good very large sample size I'm drawing from when I say it is not a fair generalization.

I have to be honest here; I have never been a highly faithful person, meaning I have never really accepted too much on faith; I always have to work at that. I find it very hard to believe that someone could be shocked to the point of changing their life to learn that, in fact, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young (and others) were not only imperfect but were at times wrong. How could this be surprising? I think the key is to find the good where you can and cling to that and decide what works for you. For me it works to be in the church. That and I have had certain experiences that make me stay, although those are mine and not something I will share freely here.

Of course, your subjective experiences are your own and only you can give them proper weight and decide what they mean. No one can challenge that, of course. You are right though, people don't get upset by finding out that a prophet has been wrong here or there, may not be perfect, and may have even done a wrong thing here or there. They get upset by finding that they are wrong in big ways, have made big mistakes and then have not told the truth about it. I'm not trying to convince you that that is the only or even right way to see the church's history, but it is one rational way to see it and when it is framed that way (whether the person is right or wrong) it makes it easier to understand their choices. When looked at that way you can believe they are wrong, but not that they are silly. Does that makes sense?

I have little comprehension of much of the MoSto crowd, to be honest, because I just cant wrap my mind around how they can get to a point in their adult lives and be shocked when they face the fact that the people who established the church and are running it now are just like all the other imperfect people in the world. I fail to understand how this is so traumatic that they need a support group or a new community to adapt to the reality. But, if they do need it, I am glad they have it. I just don’t understand it. For me, if I left the church, I would also leave it alone as much as family commitments etc. would allow me to.

If you left because you came to believe that it was not what it purported to be but at that point had built your life around it, there is a good chance you would need some support. Maybe you would not. But there are so many people who do that the chances are good. There is a temptation here, as I say above, to shake your head think all these folks silly. While they may be wrong, they are responding in predictable human ways. As I have said here and elsewhere, the great divide for both believers and non-believers seems to be a failure of empathy, which I also see as human and predictable. I would like to find a way to combat it, however, most of all in myself.

[NorthwestUteFan]

but I don't dwell on the bitchiness. Vent, be done, be happy.

The last two months I've felt religiously as good as I have in many years. And not one thing changed, save my constant bitching.

These are very important words of wisdom.

When I was a teenager I was a very aggressive driver. I was angry and tense all the time, and every trip in the car was a race. My blood would boil and though I never acted out with 'road rage', I yelled at and flipped off countless hundreds of people.

Then I recognized that MY actions had an influence on those around me. I simply quit caring about being 'slighted' by others. If somebody cut me off, I would back off and let him in rather than chasing him down to swerve back in front of him. If somebody signals to get over, I try to make eye contact and give him the space he requires. I slowed down to enjoy the view, and along the way I realized that driving cautiously and near the speed limit rarely cost me more than a minute of lost time. But my overall stress levels are significantly lower.

Church can be the same, in every sense. When I worry about everything people say about my wild kids, or when people say bizarre things in church, I simply let it go. I also began to look at every person in the ward as a wonderful child of God, and that helped me tolerate the wife of the 1st counselor in the bishopric (and primary chorister) complaining out loud in Primary every Sunday for 2 straight months to my Sunbeam-aged twins that I am too tall and block her view in Sacrament Meeting. No wonder that bench is always open, she is going to whine about it...

I use this place as a blowoff valve, so I don't have to do it in real life. Looking for the good in every little thing can be a rewarding spiritual quest.

[wally]

As I have said here and elsewhere, the great divide for both believers and non-believers seems to be a failure of empathy, which I also see as human and predictable. I would like to find a way to combat it, however, most of all in myself.

Agreed. And each side of the equation feels it is entitled to more empathy than the other. That is what leaves the equation unbalanced.

To acquiesce to the other side in terms of empathy is to either confess futility of faith or to give control back to the despised institution.

[DrumNFeather]

These are very important words of wisdom.

When I was a teenager I was a very aggressive driver. I was angry and tense all the time, and every trip in the car was a race. My blood would boil and though I never acted out with 'road rage', I yelled at and flipped off countless hundreds of people.

Then I recognized that MY actions had an influence on those around me. I simply quit caring about being 'slighted' by others. If somebody cut me off, I would back off and let him in rather than chasing him down to swerve back in front of him. If somebody signals to get over, I try to make eye contact and give him the space he requires. I slowed down to enjoy the view, and along the way I realized that driving cautiously and near the speed limit rarely cost me more than a minute of lost time. But my overall stress levels are significantly lower.

Church can be the same, in every sense. When I worry about everything people say about my wild kids, or when people say bizarre things in church, I simply let it go. I also began to look at every person in the ward as a wonderful child of God, and that helped me tolerate the wife of the 1st counselor in the bishopric (and primary chorister) complaining out loud in Primary every Sunday for 2 straight months to my Sunbeam-aged twins that I am too tall and block her view in Sacrament Meeting. No wonder that bench is always open, she is going to whine about it...

I use this place as a blowoff valve, so I don't have to do it in real life. Looking for the good in every little thing can be a rewarding spiritual quest.

Great post.

This reminds me a lot of when I go to a movie theater (which happens rarely). I have to get myself geared up to deal with the talking, noise, and distractions all around the theater that annoy me to no end and quite often ruin the movie-going experience for me. The fact that I am looking to be annoyed seems to be beside the point in the moment, but with the benefit of hindsight, the fact remains that nobody (or very rarely) does someone go to the movies with the intention of annoying other people...some people are just annoying.

I think the same holds true for church. Whether it is an overzealous primary leader or bishopric member, or the ward crazy or someone inbetween, everyone is going there for their own spiritual experience and as long as that is not harmful to others, who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly? Nobody goes to church on Sunday with the intent to harm others by just being there. Does it happen? Sure. Do we sometimes have to come home and debreif about all the things that annoy us? Absolutely. But as you say...once you do that, let it go, and find the good in it.

[DrumNFeather]

What would doing that look like?

For me to respond to this, I think I'd probably have to name names to use examples, and I'd prefer to not do that.

[UtahDan]

For me to respond to this, I think I'd probably have to name names to use examples, and I'd prefer to not do that.

Maybe privately then.