exmo.com comes to WashPo

[DrumNFeather]

In my experience (and a whole lot of other examples I can think of), the more you swallow of this "church", the less healthy and balanced you become.

Yes, we'd all like to approach things like Carl or Cardiac, but where is the voice that encourages that? Certainly not on Sunday.

Don't you think this could be/is the case for someone who has left the church as well? UD and I talk all the time of having kind of a healthy nuanced view of the church if you are in and staying in...but how healthy can it be to be out and then dig your heels in on being out to the point of obsession? In other words...swallowing all of the negative and being an active detractor...I don't know, that seems like an equally unhealthy way to live your life.

[creekster]

My critique is two fold. First, a lot of these ideas he is ridiculing here are promoted by the correlated materials as well as in the culture. He is a scholar in training who has a much larger world view but forgets that a lot of people don't have the inclination or opportunity to gain that broad view. So while he is being sarcastic, there is a lot there that really is believed by some. And it really is tough on some people when those beliefs bump up against other realities. Second, it seems to be a more biting version of the "people leave over silly things, (silly people!)" canard that is so familiar. It is a caricature that doesn't do any justice to the real reasons people find themselves in faith crises.

I guess. Sure many people believe some of those things and some people believe many of those things, but I am not sure I know anyone who believes all of those things. And I really doubt that anyone with any life experience could believe all of those things. I think he was making a point but not being literal.

As to your second point, that seems rather presumptuous for you to implicitly assert that you know the actual reason people leave. I don’t think it is a canard for all cases. You will have a better sense of whether it is for those persons with whom you associate, but I doubt you can reasonably draw the same conclusion for everyone.

I have to be honest here; I have never been a highly faithful person, meaning I have never really accepted too much on faith; I always have to work at that. I find it very hard to believe that someone could be shocked to the point of changing their life to learn that, in fact, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young (and others) were not only imperfect but were at times wrong. How could this be surprising? I think the key is to find the good where you can and cling to that and decide what works for you. For me it works to be in the church. That and I have had certain experiences that make me stay, although those are mine and not something I will share freely here.

I have little comprehension of much of the MoSto crowd, to be honest, because I just cant wrap my mind around how they can get to a point in their adult lives and be shocked when they face the fact that the people who established the church and are running it now are just like all the other imperfect people in the world. I fail to understand how this is so traumatic that they need a support group or a new community to adapt to the reality. But, if they do need it, I am glad they have it. I just don’t understand it. For me, if I left the church, I would also leave it alone as much as family commitments etc. would allow me to.

[scottie]

I have little comprehension of much of the MoSto crowd, to be honest, because I just cant wrap my mind around how they can get to a point in their adult lives and be shocked when they face the fact that the people who established the church and are running it now are just like all the other imperfect people in the world.

Jesus complicated it with his talk about judging prophets by their fruits.

[Coach McGuirk]

I have little comprehension of much of the MoSto crowd, to be honest, because I just cant wrap my mind around how they can get to a point in their adult lives and be shocked when they face the fact that the people who established the church and are running it now are just like all the other imperfect people in the world. I fail to understand how this is so traumatic that they need a support group or a new community to adapt to the reality. But, if they do need it, I am glad they have it. I just don’t understand it. For me, if I left the church, I would also leave it alone as much as family commitments etc. would allow me to.

This is me as well.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Jesus complicated it with his talk about judging prophets by their fruits.

This is me as well.

Perhaps this means that David O. McKay was THE great prophet of the church, as he gave us the church we have today. The church as Joseph Smith set it up would perhaps look more like the FLDS groups today.

[creekster]

Jesus complicated it with his talk about judging prophets by their fruits.

Care to elaborate? I see and feel no tension between that staement and mine.

[Pheidippides]

This is me as well.

I understand the shock because I've been through it, but I don't understand the dwelling on it. It's what I make of it at this point, and that works fine. Okay, it is flawed. No biggie. So is everything else in my life.

[creekster]

This is me as well.

Perhaps this means that David O. McKay was THE great prophet of the church, as he gave us the church we have today. The church as Joseph Smith set it up would perhaps look more like the FLDS groups today.

Maybe. Hard to say without some serious speculation and without accepting the premise that there is zero divine guidance.

[LA Ute]

Maybe. Hard to say without some serious speculation and without accepting the premise that there is zero divine guidance.

Bingo.

[creekster]

I understand the shock because I've been through it, but I don't understand the dwelling on it. It's what I make of it at this point, and that works fine. Okay, it is flawed. No biggie. So is everything else in my life.

Understood. I didnt mean to criticize those who feel the need. I have tried very hard to grasp what the MoSto group is feeling. I have watched videos of one of their conferences and I recently even listened to a podcast or two (well, one and a half). I even spent some time talking to someone who is pretty immersed in the group. And try as I might, I just dont get it. Undoubtedly this is me and not them, and I wish them well, but it escapes me completely.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Understood. I didnt mean to criticize those who feel the need. I have tried very hard to grasp what the MoSto group is feeling. I have watched videos of one of their conferences and I recently even listened to a podcast or two (well, one and a half). I even spent some time talking to someone who is pretty immersed in the group. And try as I might, I just dont get it. Undoubtedly this is me and not them, and I wish them well, but it escapes me completely.

To be fair, there are a lot of great podcasts in the archive. Lots of interviews with fascinating people and interesting topics.

[creekster]

To be fair, there are a lot of great podcasts in the archive. Lots of interviews with fascinating people and interesting topics.

Yes, absolutely. I meant on the general topic we are discussing here.

[scottie]

Care to elaborate? I see and feel no tension between that staement and mine.

Just that there's a lot more to it, IMO, than viewing JS as just another imperfect person -- we're supposed to judge him by his fruits (good and bad, right?). The game changes when you claim to be a prophet.

[creekster]

Just that there's a lot more to it, IMO, than viewing JS as just another imperfect person -- we're supposed to judge him by his fruits (good and bad, right?). The game changes when you claim to be a prophet.

Sure; thats the part about finding what you think is good and clinging to it. That's what I am doing. You may reach a different decision. But I know one thing with certainty: if whatever you or anyone ends up believing in involves humans it will fall far short of perfection.

[wally]

I have to be honest here; I have never been a highly faithful person, meaning I have never really accepted too much on faith; I always have to work at that. I find it very hard to believe that someone could be shocked to the point of changing their life to learn that, in fact, Joseph Smith or Brigham Young (and others) were not only imperfect but were at times wrong. How could this be surprising? I think the key is to find the good where you can and cling to that and decide what works for you. For me it works to be in the church. That and I have had certain experiences that make me stay, although those are mine and not something I will share freely here.

I have little comprehension of much of the MoSto crowd, to be honest, because I just cant wrap my mind around how they can get to a point in their adult lives and be shocked when they face the fact that the people who established the church and are running it now are just like all the other imperfect people in the world. I fail to understand how this is so traumatic that they need a support group or a new community to adapt to the reality. But, if they do need it, I am glad they have it. I just don’t understand it. For me, if I left the church, I would also leave it alone as much as family commitments etc. would allow me to.

Your last 2 paragraphs really resonate with me, and make me think that I have more work to do to empathize with the "MoSto crowd."