Newordermormon.org

[UtahDan]

If you can't see the myriad problems inherent in your analogy, you are every bit as obtuse as you claim creekster is. I can translate that into cougjunkie if you'd like. Better yet, maybe he will. Admit it was a dumb analogy (or, at a minimum, at least two people with a lot of training in sophistry think it to be a dumb analogy) and try again, maybe.

The more I talk the more my point is getting missed. It's small point. I'll let it rest.

[cougjunkie]

Why? A per person measure isn't terribly out of place, its used for a lot of measures. The point is that the church can do more, but doesn't. It drops billions in real estate, but only tens of millions to help the needy. That is what is shameful, or should be, for a church that claims to follow the teachings of jesus.

First of all from your own quote the church has dropped billions not tens of millions in humanitarian aid.

Second without real estate and buildings for the members to meet in they would be spending even less in humanitarian aid and the members would have nowhere to meet. So then you would bitch about that.

You are just so bitter that your wife left you for some guy and they are now happy in the church. Somehow that is the churches fault. You remind me of my sister in law that left many years ago because when she was 16 some lady kicked the back of her seat and told her to be quiet during sacrament. That still pisses her off. You need someone to blame for your wife leaving you and the church is an easy scapegoat. You may want to try a little internal reflection before blaming everyone else. It seems for her the grass was actually greener on the other side.

[Jarid in Cedar]

On the titthing settlement form(the tax form?), it says something along the lines of "These funds were paid without any expectation of returned good except intangible spiritual benefits. No one should expect to "get their money's worth" out of tithing or any other charitable giving.

I donate to charity for the intangible joy that I receive from helping others.

We pay some tithing so that I receive the intangible benefit of having a happy wife.

I donate to the Crimson Club so that the team I root for can be more successful and I can experience the intangible joy of being in New Orleans at the Sugar Bowl, or the intangible sorrows sitting in the rain at the Las Veags bowl last year.

Giving is not about receiving. At least that was what I have been taught about everything that involves giving. Give because you want to, not because you expect an itemized receipt of what you get from it.

[lambdacoug]

First of all from your own quote the church has dropped billions not tens of millions in humanitarian aid.

I meant that it spends that per year. Though no hard numbers are available for what it spends due to lack of transparency. Based on the numbers of temples built, meeting houses, CCC, etc...

You are just so bitter that your wife left you for some guy and they are now happy in the church. Somehow that is the churches fault. You remind me of my sister in law that left many years ago because when she was 16 some lady kicked the back of her seat and told her to be quiet during sacrament. That still pisses her off. You need someone to blame for your wife leaving you and the church is an easy scapegoat. You may want to try a little internal reflection before blaming everyone else. It seems for her the grass was actually greener on the other side.

Wow. You got nearly every detail wrong. She cheated on me in epic fashion. Yeah, I'm bitter about it, there are very few things more traumatic to deal with. Secondly, she left the church at the same time and now attends some non-denominational christian church. I'm not going to respond to everything else, but you are dead wrong.

Finally, fuck you. That was a fucking low blow, you know it and couldn't help yourself you fucking asshole. I may say plenty of things about the church, but I do not take personal jabs like that, you fuck. :finger3:

[Indy Coug]

As far as the specifics of what the church spends our tithing on, it's really none of our business. If God isn't happy with it, he can set things straight.

[cougjunkie]

As far as the specifics of what the church spends our tithing on, it's really none of our business. If God isn't happy with it, he can set things straight.

Exactly like when he removed Harold B. Lee and Joseph Smith from office.

[cougjunkie]

On the titthing settlement form(the tax form?), it says something along the lines of "These funds were paid without any expectation of returned good except intangible spiritual benefits. No one should expect to "get their money's worth" out of tithing or any other charitable giving.

I donate to charity for the intangible joy that I receive from helping others.

We pay some tithing so that I receive the intangible benefit of having a happy wife.

I donate to the Crimson Club so that the team I root for can be more successful and I can experience the intangible joy of being in New Orleans at the Sugar Bowl, or the intangible sorrows sitting in the rain at the Las Veags bowl last year.

Giving is not about receiving. At least that was what I have been taught about everything that involves giving. Give because you want to, not because you expect an itemized receipt of what you get from it.

Exactly and when you donate to the Crimson Club do you question what they spend your money on? Or do you trust them to spend it appropriately?

[woot]

You are just so bitter that your wife left you for some guy and they are now happy in the church. Somehow that is the churches fault. You remind me of my sister in law that left many years ago because when she was 16 some lady kicked the back of her seat and told her to be quiet during sacrament. That still pisses her off. You need someone to blame for your wife leaving you and the church is an easy scapegoat. You may want to try a little internal reflection before blaming everyone else. It seems for her the grass was actually greener on the other side.

I'm starting to come around to wuap's position re: cougjunkie.

[cougjunkie]

I'm starting to come around to wuap's position re: cougjunkie.

What position is that?

[Tone Loc]

I meant that it spends that per year. Though no hard numbers are available for what it spends due to lack of transparency. Based on the numbers of temples built, meeting houses, CCC, etc...



Wow. You got nearly every detail wrong. She cheated on me in epic fashion. Yeah, I'm bitter about it, there are very few things more traumatic to deal with. Secondly, she left the church at the same time and now attends some non-denominational christian church. I'm not going to respond to everything else, but you are dead wrong.

Finally, fuck you. That was a fucking low blow, you know it and couldn't help yourself you fucking asshole. I may say plenty of things about the church, but I do not take personal jabs like that, you fuck. :finger3:

Do you ever stop to think that taking jabs at someones church might be personal? A church that people put their whole lives into? A church that becomes a part of them?

Everyone that belongs to said church should be telling you to eff off with all the personal attacks you make toward it.

Just saying...

[Moliere]

This is what I actually said re: church welfare and humanitarian aid.


Welfare counts, but doesn't count for much in 3rd world countries because there is not a lot of welfare that can be provided due to a smaller number of members. In addition, church welfare is primarily used for members, which diminishes its impact, IMO. In my experience, it is also often contingent on tithing, though certainly not always.

Then we'll agree to disagree. My opinion is that providing food for a starving family is every bit as important in the US as it is in Africa or Asia. I'm also cognizant to the fact that the church (my little church of 14 million members) can't solve the world's problems (the world with 7 billion people) and throwing a bunch of money that way won't change much. I do what I can and I'm happy with my effort.

[Indy Coug]

Maybe the church is sitting on its money because the mother of all "7 years of plenty, 7 years of famine" is underway.

[lambdacoug]

Do you ever stop to think that taking jabs at someones church might be personal? A church that people put their whole lives into? A church that becomes a part of them?

Everyone that belongs to said church should be telling you to eff off with all the personal attacks you make toward it.

Just saying...

Have you ever stopped to think that the church was once as personal to me as it is to those that take such offense? That it was once a part of me as much as it is of you or anyone that still believes?

Of course I know that people cannot divorce their belief system from their personal view, and a critique of the church is interpreted as an attack on their person. However, that doesn't make it so. If someone cannot distance their view of self from their religion, that is not my problem. An attack on the church is not a personal attack. Period.

Now if I were to say, "You are all stupid for believing XYZ", that would be a different matter. I don't do that. In this case, I provided actual figures and the result was cougjunkie's epic ad hominem. If it bothers you that much, fine. It bothered me when I left, I thought the church did more in humanitarian aid. I was surprised it's own numbers showed such a small humanitarian contribution when compared to other things that church spends money on.

[lambdacoug]

Then we'll agree to disagree. My opinion is that providing food for a starving family is every bit as important in the US as it is in Africa or Asia. I'm also cognizant to the fact that the church (my little church of 14 million members) can't solve the world's problems (the world with 7 billion people) and throwing a bunch of money that way won't change much. I do what I can and I'm happy with my effort.

You are right. Welfare here in the US is every bit as meaningful for those affected as it is elsewhere.

[Coach McGuirk]

Have you ever stopped to think that the church was once as personal to me as it is to those that take such offense? That it was once a part of me as much as it is of you or anyone that still believes?

Of course I know that people cannot divorce their belief system from their personal view, and a critique of the church is interpreted as an attack on their person. However, that doesn't make it so. If someone cannot distance their view of self from their religion, that is not my problem. An attack on the church is not a personal attack. Period.

Now if I were to say, "You are all stupid for believing XYZ", that would be a different matter. I don't do that. In this case, I provided actual figures and the result was cougjunkie's epic ad hominem. If it bothers you that much, fine. It bothered me when I left, I thought the church did more in humanitarian aid. I was surprised it's own numbers showed such a small humanitarian contribution when compared to other things that church spends money on.

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