Newordermormon.org

[Green Monstah]

Isn't their already a Stayinmormonism.com website that Dehlin sends people who don't want to follow his path out of the Church?

The need for people to identify or label themselves as to what kind of Mormon they are bothers me. It's fractious and does little good IMO. Why do people have to be mainstream, TBM, progressive, new order, etc?

Why can't people just be Mormon? It seems like most of these groups like NOM all want a big tent church where unorthodoxy is accepted, but their approach seems counterproductive by pitching their own tents outside the church's tent.

Did John Dehlin finally cut ties (or have them cut)? I really admired the fact that he started his crusade as a way to help people stay and was really bummed when he acknowledged that he is no longer active.

[lambdacoug]

Labels are very useful and very problematic at the same time. This is not an issue that is unique to Mormonism. And there is lots of border keeping from all sides. Imagine if John Dehlin gave an interview where he said "I don't believe in the restoration, I think the BOM is fiction and I'm agnostic at best about God and I'm Mormon." Imagine he did that without any other qualifier or disclaimer. Many members would be beside themselves to point out that he is not a typical Mormon and many of them would say he is not a real or authentic Mormon. They would say that it is dishonest of him not to qualify his status as a Mormon. Remember Real World Julie and the furor over her living in a house with guys, dressing immodestly, saying that she didn't agree with the church on some things AND saying that she was a Mormon? The fiercest defenders of what is and is not Mormon are the faithful.

But I do think it is a good question to ask why someone who is other than faithful would care about a label. I think there are lots of reasons. Probably the big one is that they want to identify as Mormon in some way but not in all ways and these labels allow them to find one another in internet land. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt too many people have run into others in person who want to be inside the tent and introduce themselves as NOM or unorthodox or what not. Maybe it happens more than I think.

I guess my question is why do you say that using some other label is counter productive and amounts to pitching your tent outside the church? Does the problem you are pointing to lie with the actions of the unorthodox, the reaction of the orthodox or both? Aren't negative reactions to that the sort of gate keeping I mentioned above? I think you are asking a good question as to why labels matter to the unorthodox, but I think it is just as good a question to turn it around and ask whether there is a good reason for the orthodox to be bothered or threatened by anyone doing that (not saying I think you are threatened).

Labels are a powerful tool to keep the faithful in line. Once someone is labelled an apostate, there is a very strong stigma against even associating with that person. The part I bolded becomes apparent very quickly after leaving the church. As for labels, I don't give a shit if I'm labelled an angry exmo or whatever else. I am what I am. As for mormonism not being more accepting of unorthodoxy, I believe it is because the religion is immature. I say that by looking at how unorthodoxy is viewed by catholics and jews versus mormons. There is a big difference. I think it stems from a more secure base of what it means to be catholic and jewish versus what it means to be a mormon. The other two have had millennia to figure it out.

[UtahDan]

Did John Dehlin finally cut ties (or have them cut)? I really admired the fact that he started his crusade as a way to help people stay and was really bummed when he acknowledged that he is no longer active.

John is still active. He says he attends about once a month, usually Sacrament meeting only, sometimes the others. He recently was interviewed by John Larsen for Mormon Expression. He is very candid about his standing and his objectives. If you are interested it is here:

http://mormonexpression.com/2012/01/...0-john-dehlin/

[wuapinmon]

Yall should look up the idea of "epistemological elite." A crude example would be that they are people who can tolerate others' ignorance of their beliefs, but they cannot tolerate someone who knows about their beliefs, but does not share them.

[Surfah]

Labels are very useful and very problematic at the same time. This is not an issue that is unique to Mormonism. And there is lots of border keeping from all sides. Imagine if John Dehlin gave an interview where he said "I don't believe in the restoration, I think the BOM is fiction and I'm agnostic at best about God and I'm Mormon." Imagine he did that without any other qualifier or disclaimer. Many members would be beside themselves to point out that he is not a typical Mormon and many of them would say he is not a real or authentic Mormon. They would say that it is dishonest of him not to qualify his status as a Mormon. Remember Real World Julie and the furor over her living in a house with guys, dressing immodestly, saying that she didn't agree with the church on some things AND saying that she was a Mormon? The fiercest defenders of what is and is not Mormon are the faithful.

But I do think it is a good question to ask why someone who is other than faithful would care about a label. I think there are lots of reasons. Probably the big one is that they want to identify as Mormon in some way but not in all ways and these labels allow them to find one another in internet land. Maybe I'm wrong but I doubt too many people have run into others in person who want to be inside the tent and introduce themselves as NOM or unorthodox or what not. Maybe it happens more than I think.

I guess my question is why do you say that using some other label is counter productive and amounts to pitching your tent outside the church? Does the problem you are pointing to lie with the actions of the unorthodox, the reaction of the orthodox or both? Aren't negative reactions to that the sort of gate keeping I mentioned above? I think you are asking a good question as to why labels matter to the unorthodox, but I think it is just as good a question to turn it around and ask whether there is a good reason for the orthodox to be bothered or threatened by anyone doing that (not saying I think you are threatened).

Oh, it's an issue on both sides. That's why I listed some of the labels for the orthodox as well. Some orthodox derive just as much pride in being a TBM or defender of the faith as the unorthodox does in being labeled just that. It shouldn't matter to anyone. I've always said and maintain that I am for a big tent. It should be hard for anyone to leave and easy for anyone to come back. That's where I stand. I wasn't trying to stir any pot. I just think these types of smaller tents outside of the Church slowly devolve into what Jay and Moliere described until they eventually pull up stakes and go. And I think that has more to do with the labels they ascribe to themselves, focusing on what makes them different than what they share with the Church.

[Jeff Lebowski]

New order Mormon is dorky, it tries too hard and itself sounds cultish. Why can't everyone just call themselves progressive Mormons?

Because it sounds pretentious.

[Goatnapper'96]

Did John Dehlin finally cut ties (or have them cut)? I really admired the fact that he started his crusade as a way to help people stay and was really bummed when he acknowledged that he is no longer active.

Dehlin loves being a rockstar. My guess is he bounces back and forth frequently enough to maintain that status.

[Goatnapper'96]

Labels are a powerful tool to keep the faithful in line. Once someone is labelled an apostate, there is a very strong stigma against even associating with that person. The part I bolded becomes apparent very quickly after leaving the church. As for labels, I don't give a shit if I'm labelled an angry exmo or whatever else. I am what I am. As for mormonism not being more accepting of unorthodoxy, I believe it is because the religion is immature. I say that by looking at how unorthodoxy is viewed by catholics and jews versus mormons. There is a big difference. I think it stems from a more secure base of what it means to be catholic and jewish versus what it means to be a mormon. The other two have had millennia to figure it out.

I call you an angry ex-mormon, not because of labels but because you appear both angry and a former mormon. Now if you were a short dude wearing a green knickers, a green waistcoat suit with a white shirt and a bow tie along with a cool derby hat with a four leaf clover attached I would call you an angry leprachaun.

[UtahDan]

Labels are a powerful tool to keep the faithful in line. Once someone is labelled an apostate, there is a very strong stigma against even associating with that person. The part I bolded becomes apparent very quickly after leaving the church. As for labels, I don't give a shit if I'm labelled an angry exmo or whatever else. I am what I am. As for mormonism not being more accepting of unorthodoxy, I believe it is because the religion is immature. I say that by looking at how unorthodoxy is viewed by catholics and jews versus mormons. There is a big difference. I think it stems from a more secure base of what it means to be catholic and jewish versus what it means to be a mormon. The other two have had millennia to figure it out.

I don't really care whether the institutional church wants to tightly define who is in or out. That is its prerogative and I don't personally think it is possible to change the institutional church over a time line that measured in increments smaller than decades. That is all okay with me. It would be nice to see it specifically encourage members to be non-judgmental and not allow differences in belief to harm important relationship (to the extent they can control that, sometimes the apostate person will make that impossible).

Some of us are very fortunate that the faithful folks in our lives don't cut us off when we leave the church but I spend a lot of time talking to people who have experienced that and the amount of hurt that sort of thing causes is real and awful. Of course in many cases they are at least as much to blame for damaged relationships. I see that too and I preach exactly what I am saying the church should every chance I get. I'm more concerned about people keeping their relationships than I am the size of tents or where the border should get drawn.

[UtahDan]

Oh, it's an issue on both sides. That's why I listed some of the labels for the orthodox as well. Some orthodox derive just as much pride in being a TBM or defender of the faith as the unorthodox does in being labeled just that. It shouldn't matter to anyone. I've always said and maintain that I am for a big tent. It should be hard for anyone to leave and easy for anyone to come back. That's where I stand. I wasn't trying to stir any pot. I just think these types of smaller tents outside of the Church slowly devolve into what Jay and Moliere described until they eventually pull up stakes and go. And I think that has more to do with the labels they ascribe to themselves, focusing on what makes them different than what they share with the Church.

I like everything you just said.

[Green Monstah]

John is still active. He says he attends about once a month, usually Sacrament meeting only, sometimes the others. He recently was interviewed by John Larsen for Mormon Expression. He is very candid about his standing and his objectives. If you are interested it is here:

http://mormonexpression.com/2012/01/...0-john-dehlin/

Thanks. These podcasts are great, but too damn long.

[lambdacoug]

I call you an angry ex-mormon, not because of labels but because you appear both angry and a former mormon. Now if you were a short dude wearing a green knickers, a green waistcoat suit with a white shirt and a bow tie along with a cool derby hat with a four leaf clover attached I would call you an angry leprachaun.

I find it informative that former mormons are frowned upon for being angry. I'm sure you and everyone on this board is different though and you only think people that leave the church are angry when they really are. Yes, I am still hurt by the time I spent in the church and what harm it caused me. Then again, I'm only hurt because it was such a central part of my life for 30+ years. Why should I not be hurt? One thing I find very telling is that people react with sympathy, generally, when someone has gone through an awful divorce. Yet the reaction from the same person is likely to be very different when one has gone through a nasty exit from the religion of their birth. The hypocrisy is not lost on me.

Anyway, all of that aside, labels are still a powerful tool used to keep people in line. As for whether the church officially sanctions such labels, it doesn't really matter, they still are applied and they still have a strong affect. As I was exiting and my bishop came by and I didn't have the courage to turn him away, he'd ask what it would take to get me to come back. I stated that first and foremost there needs to be room for a dissenting opinion, and that those that voice it need to be embraced and not shunned. His response was typical, he said "That isn't the way the church works." So I told him, I simply wouldn't be returning. Perhaps I just come from a very orthodox area, but based on my experience in the church, I highly doubt this is isolated to my area.

[Northwestcoug]

Dehlin loves being a rockstar. My guess is he bounces back and forth frequently enough to maintain that status.

I see that to some extent. But don't we all want to be one?
I have no doubt that John's heart is in the right place. I have a relative that emailed him for advice, before he was going to talk to his bishop. He didn't expect more than an email in reply, but John offered to talk to him over the phone. They ended up talking for awhile, and I know he was very appreciative.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I find it informative that former mormons are frowned upon for being angry.

I am not sure this has anything to do with the church. Angry people just aren't a lot of fun to be around in any setting.

[Indy Coug]

Anyway, all of that aside, labels are still a powerful tool used to keep people in line.

So what was your motivation for choosing the username of "atheistcougar"?