For the Strength of Youth 2012

[ERCougar]

I think Moliere and Steelblue highlight the point that calling sexual sin serious because of the possibility of bringing children into the world doesn't hold up very well. I'll add to their question--with the development of birth control, did sexual sin suddenly become less serious?

[Moliere]

I know it's not what you asked, but I think it's relevant to the question at least in my mind. And I think all of us do to some degree. If we had children that were fornicating and would not stop, wouldn't we at least encourage them to practice safe sex? If someone is having safe sex they're at least exercising some degree of responsibility and acknowledging there are consequences (perhaps only implicitly) of their actions. So yes I think there is a difference.

But really to me it's a silly exercise to rank these types of things. Is repeated fornication in a committed relationship worse than a solitary one night stand? Kind of like Cowboy said, I agree that murder is the worst thing anyone can do and everything else falls behind that. Where, well it depends on each individual. Even my own opinions and "rankings" are constantly evolving. And I think they should with circumstance and context.

I agree that it depends on circumstance (see niku's post) but I personally don't agree that safe sex is any less "sinful" than sex. Sure one is more responsible than the other, but does that really change the nature of it in the eyes of God? I really don't know but I opine that it doesn't, although I'm open to change my opinion if I find a convincing agrument. I also don't think there's any scriptural evidence that it does change the nature of the sin. Maybe someone with CHoI 1 can see if punishment for safe sex is less than for sex.

[Moliere]

I think Moliere and Steelblue highlight the point that calling sexual sin serious because of the possibility of bringing children into the world doesn't hold up very well. I'll add to their question--with the development of birth control, did sexual sin suddenly become less serious?

This is a good addition to the question. I would opine that it didn't.

[woot]

I agree that Rambam's reading is probably forced, but it seems like a necessary fudging in order to escape the idea that fornication is the second worst thing a human can do. If, after considering the implications of that idea for a moment, you really, truly believe that consensual sex with another person is the most heinous act a person can commit short of murdering someone, there's something terribly wrong with you.

[Sullyute]

I cannot remember if I read it on CUF or somowhere else, but someone spoke up during a chastity lesson and said that they were glad that two teens had messed around and got pregnant, because if not then they wouldn't have been able to adopt their child.

So one couple's "sin" can be the answer to another couple's prayer.

[UtahDan]

I take issue with this concept that sexual sin causes you to be less confident and cause you spiritual and emotional damage. The only reason this is the case is that guilt that we as a church self inflict on ourselves. So of course if you guilt trip the hell out of someone over sexual sin from a young age, that person is going to have some emotional damage and confidence loss when they sin sexually.

John Larsen put this well on the recent Mormon Expression "God of the Lost Keys" episode. Paraphrasing, I run into people all the time who basically say to me "I am broken and without these crutches I would not be able to get around at all" and I say to them, there is nothing wrong with foot!

EDIT: By the way, very good overall analysis Jay.

[UtahDan]

I wonder what the real motivation is to control sexuality so tightly. Maybe it is the wisdom of the ages telling us that kids born out of wedlock are in greater danger of becoming marginalized or that emotional damage results from sex too freely engaged in. Or maybe it is only a vestige of the patriarchal control exerted in primitive polygamist societies, most commonly now seen in nature.

My view, and I don't think you have to be at all cynical to believe this, is that the very best way to achieve active, tithe paying*, life long members is temple marriage. All the things that they promote so heavily such as avoiding "serious sin," missions for men, etc., make that much more likely. I bet the statistics back this up in spades. Many people who taste forbidden fruit, so to speak, will feel very guilty, repent and find their way back. But there is also a large percentage who having done that will say "this is not awful, this is wonderful" and will never find their way to the temple. Some people are like elephants. Elephants can be trained and tamed so that they follow direction and respond to handlers. But the moment the switch flips on where the animal realizes it doesn't have to obey if it doesn't want to, the switch can't be flipped back ever again.





*I use that as a benchmark for faithfulness, not cynically to imply that the church is just after people's money.

[UtahDan]

In light of some of the discussion above I'm curious to know how people approach the issue of birth control with their kids. I hear Surfah saying that if they are fornicating that of course you would encourage them to be safe, but by the time you find that out it might be too late. I have known several pretty faithful LDS people who have their teenage daughters on birth control, at least one of whom more or less said "I'm not going to take a chance that she is going to mess up her life." Maybe there are some who encourage their sons to carry a condom around. But this can't be the norm can it? I may be totally wrong but my feeling is this is why there seem to be a lot of LDS kids who come up pregnant. They aren't prepared for the moment when temptation overcomes them. On the other hand, putting birth control in their hand has to communicate at least a little bit of license.

How is the cost benefit balanced here? In the European countries that have very, very low rates of teen pregnancy and disease the ethos is that a boy would not be caught dead without a condom and carrying one is viewed as being responsible rather than presumptions or planning to do something wrong. Of course teens are very promiscuous in those countries. My life would have unfolded very differently had I been a guy that carried a condom around (and by the way I do not wish it had been different in the least, just recognizing the reality of this).

I do think, and it would seem at least some here agree, that the "sin next to murder" business creates a lot of mischief, but that is secondary to my question. What do you do with your kids? What do you plan to do?

[NorthwestUteFan]

If, after considering the implications of that idea for a moment, you really, truly believe that consensual sex with another person is the most heinous act a person can commit short of murdering someone, there's something terribly wrong with you.

Obviously NON-consensual sex has to be worse by at least several orders of magnitude on the scale, but the strict reading of that scripture (and of the FtSoY pamphlet) would seem to equate the two. I agree something is completely rotten with that position.

[NorthwestUteFan]

In light of some of the discussion above I'm curious to know how people approach the issue of birth control with their kids. I hear Surfah saying that if they are fornicating that of course you would encourage them to be safe, but by the time you find that out it might be too late.

I will not necessarily suggest that my sons go to BYU but will support them if they choose to go there. But wherever they go to college I will expect them to live the standards I have taught them, which are consistent with the church.

But I will still demand that they carry a condom in the wallet. Probably will start the practice when they are in High School, and perhaps even duriong the later Jr High years. Kids who know full well the risks and responsibilities associated with 'making sexy time' are less likely to experiment and begin at a later age, than those who were not properly educated, according to numerous studies.

[UtahDan]

I will not necessarily suggest that my sons go to BYU but will support them if they choose to go there. But wherever they go to college I will expect them to live the standards I have taught them, which are consistent with the church.

But I will still demand that they carry a condom in the wallet. Probably will start the practice when they are in High School, and perhaps even duriong the later Jr High years. Kids who know full well the risks and responsibilities associated with 'making sexy time' are less likely to experiment and begin at a later age, than those who were not properly educated, according to numerous studies.

Interesting. Is there an analogy here to keeping your guns in a locked safe but also teaching your kids how to use them (which will cause them to respect them)?

[Paperback Writer]

My view, and I don't think you have to be at all cynical to believe this, is that the very best way to achieve active, tithe paying*, life long members is temple marriage. All the things that they promote so heavily such as avoiding "serious sin," missions for men, etc., make that much more likely. I bet the statistics back this up in spades. Many people who taste forbidden fruit, so to speak, will feel very guilty, repent and find their way back. But there is also a large percentage who having done that will say "this is not awful, this is wonderful" and will never find their way to the temple. Some people are like elephants. Elephants can be trained and tamed so that they follow direction and respond to handlers. But the moment the switch flips on where the animal realizes it doesn't have to obey if it doesn't want to, the switch can't be flipped back ever again.

*I use that as a benchmark for faithfulness, not cynically to imply that the church is just after people's money.

But the switch can be flipped both ways. I have several friends and family who experienced the "this is not awful, this is wonderful" carnal world. And they didn't feel very guilty during their experience. However, as they got older and moved through various relationships they sought the stability of a long-term relationship with a spouse who had the same outlook. That's when they made their way back to church activity and started looking for a spouse seriously. It wasn't necessarily out of guilt but wanting something more stable because the profile of the people they were dating wasn't working for them - they weren't getting closer to marriage and weren't happy. I'm not stating that long-term stability and maritial happiness is exclusive to the LDS culture just that it was familiar and they knew that they had a decent or better chance of finding what they were looking for there versus elsewhere.

[The Ghost of Lyle Alzado]

In light of some of the discussion above I'm curious to know how people approach the issue of birth control with their kids. I hear Surfah saying that if they are fornicating that of course you would encourage them to be safe, but by the time you find that out it might be too late. I have known several pretty faithful LDS people who have their teenage daughters on birth control, at least one of whom more or less said "I'm not going to take a chance that she is going to mess up her life." Maybe there are some who encourage their sons to carry a condom around. But this can't be the norm can it? I may be totally wrong but my feeling is this is why there seem to be a lot of LDS kids who come up pregnant. They aren't prepared for the moment when temptation overcomes them. On the other hand, putting birth control in their hand has to communicate at least a little bit of license.

How is the cost benefit balanced here? In the European countries that have very, very low rates of teen pregnancy and disease the ethos is that a boy would not be caught dead without a condom and carrying one is viewed as being responsible rather than presumptions or planning to do something wrong. Of course teens are very promiscuous in those countries. My life would have unfolded very differently had I been a guy that carried a condom around (and by the way I do not wish it had been different in the least, just recognizing the reality of this).

I do think, and it would seem at least some here agree, that the "sin next to murder" business creates a lot of mischief, but that is secondary to my question. What do you do with your kids? What do you plan to do?

That's a great question. My wife and I have a long-standing policy of openness with our kids about sex. My 11 year old knows that he can ask us any question and we'll answer it honestly. Sometimes it's hard to keep a straight face when he asks about some of the things he hears at school. (I'll never forget the day he asked me what a douchecanoe was and if it was bad to call someone that. One of the funniest things I've ever been asked). The point is we're trying very hard to give our kids a positive, educated and non-shame-based outlook on sex while at the same time teaching them about the importance of chastity. We're also hoping that by being open and talking about things when they're young, that they'll continue coming to us when they're teenagers. I'm not sure how well the "sex is awesome but there's a good reason that you need to wait until marraige to do it" approach will work, but I like it better than my parents' approach - which was let the YM leaders and Bishop teach it. My only saving grace was that I had no game whatsoever.

As our kids get into their dating years, I don't think that I'll arm them with birth control, but I'll be damn sure that they're educated on what it is and how to use it. I'll also drill into their heads that although I don't approve of them being sexually active, if they're going to do it, they need to do it proper and protect themselves and their partner.

[Pelado]

Interesting. Is there an analogy here to keeping your guns in a locked safe but also teaching your kids how to use them (which will cause them to respect them)?

You want to make sure they respect the barrel of the gun.

[NorthwestUteFan]

You want to make sure they respect the barrel of the gun.

Yes, but they also need to understand the trigger mechanism, what it can do, how to use it properly, and to avoid putting any pressure on that trigger until it is indeed time to use it.