Snip snip!

[Northwestcoug]

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showth...ight=vasectomy

Just to review, this previous post discussed the unchanging position of the church on surgical sterilization:

"The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer." (CHOI, 2010)


I know a woman who has a rare clotting disorder. After her second child, she became extremely debilitated and was told that another pregnancy could be life-threatening. She and her husband wanted her to get a tubal ligation, and decided to go through the proper church channels. The discussion reached the stake president level, and although he 'gave' his 'OK', he admonished against sterilization.

So, if you have gotten sterilized, did you counsel with your proper priesthood leader? If you will in the future, do you plan to seek counsel? Or is this a decision best left in your bedroom?

Let's put it to a vote! (this poll is anonymous)

[BigPiney]

I would not seek counsel from a priesthood leader. This is between my wife and me and the Lord. And I tend to think that He stays out of my bedroom, much like the Church should.

[Flystripper]

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showth...ight=vasectomy

Just to review, this previous post discussed the unchanging position of the church on surgical sterilization:

"The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer." (CHOI, 2010)


I know a woman who has a rare clotting disorder. After her second child, she became extremely debilitated and was told that another pregnancy could be life-threatening. She and her husband wanted her to get a tubal ligation, and decided to go through the proper church channels. The discussion reached the stake president level, and although he 'gave' his 'OK', he admonished against sterilization.

So, if you have gotten sterilized, did you counsel with your proper priesthood leader? If you will in the future, do you plan to seek counsel? Or is this a decision best left in your bedroom?

Let's put it to a vote!

the Stake President had to give an OK? soooo tell me again why the stake President was involved and what the rammifications would there have been if he had said no and she went through with it anyway?

[falafel]

I would not seek counsel from a priesthood leader. This is between my wife and me and the Lord. And I tend to think that He stays out of my bedroom, much like the Church should.

So, hypothetically speaking, if you were actually someone from whom others would seek advice on this topic, what would you tell them?

[BigPiney]

So, hypothetically speaking, if you were actually someone from whom others would seek advice on this topic, what would you tell them?

I would tell them what is in the Handbook and tell them that I feel that this is a decision that they should make prayerfully, with fasting. My counsel to them would be to work it out in their minds (honest heartfelt discussion between the couple), and then go to the Lord, and do as they feel they are directed. Something to that effect.

[Flystripper]

I would tell them what is in the Handbook and tell them that I feel that this is a decision that they should make prayerfully, with fasting. My counsel to them would be to work it out in their minds (honest heartfelt discussion between the couple), and then go to the Lord, and do as they feel they are directed. Something to that effect.

would you need to get the Stake President involved?

[Northwestcoug]

the State president had to give an OK? soooo tell me again why the stake President was involved and what the rammifications would there have been if he had said no and she went through with it anyway?

It's been awhile, but I recall they started with the Bishop who didn't feel comfortable giving the OK. He referred them to the SP, who counselled against it but left it up to them. She ended up doing it.

I don't think there would have been any ramifications had she done it against his counsel. Nothing probably happens now, even with a super strict bishop. But like other counsel I assume it's in place to keep the church intimately involved in all our affairs...

[Flystripper]

The longer I am gone, the stranger it looks in my rear view mirror, but if people want to involve the Biship and Stake President in these type of decisions the so be it, but it is strange to me.

[wally]

If you are LDS, can you imagine sitting in your bishop's office on a fast sunday afternoon, with your spouse, kneeling in prayer regarding this issue?

I almost lol'ed just thinking about it.

EDIT: I almost laughed at awkwardness of the thought.

[BigPiney]

would you need to get the Stake President involved?

Of course not, I told them to figure it out as a couple.

[Jeff Lebowski]

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showth...ight=vasectomy

Just to review, this previous post discussed the unchanging position of the church on surgical sterilization:

"The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer." (CHOI, 2010)


I know a woman who has a rare clotting disorder. After her second child, she became extremely debilitated and was told that another pregnancy could be life-threatening. She and her husband wanted her to get a tubal ligation, and decided to go through the proper church channels. The discussion reached the stake president level, and although he 'gave' his 'OK', he admonished against sterilization.

So, if you have gotten sterilized, did you counsel with your proper priesthood leader? If you will in the future, do you plan to seek counsel? Or is this a decision best left in your bedroom?

Let's put it to a vote! (this poll is anonymous)

Your story blows my mind (I am a little skeptical). These kinds of surgeries are so commonplace among LDS now that they hardly warrant a raised eyebrow. Especially for cases like this where there are clear medical complications involved. I have no problem with a bishop or SP counseling people not to take such decisions lightly but the notion that someone would need to OK such a decision with a church leader is absurd.

[hostile]

the Stake President had to give an OK? soooo tell me again why the stake President was involved and what the rammifications would there have been if he had said no and she went through with it anyway?

I'm interested what the ramifications would be if the SP said "No. Don't do it," and then the woman became pregnant again and she had died.

[hostile]

Your story blows my mind (I am a little skeptical). These kinds of surgeries are so commonplace among LDS now that they hardly warrant a raised eyebrow. Especially for cases like this where there are clear medical complications involved. I have no problem with a bishop or SP counseling people not to take such decisions lightly but the notion that someone would need to OK such a decision with a church leader is absurd.

I agree.

It also wouldn't surprise me that there are individuals who feel they need to seek the OK and that there are church leaders who feel it is important to give advice beyond what BP has stated.

[Northwestcoug]

Looking back at the CHOI, it really is black and white. It should only be considered if the life of the mother and the fetus would be in jeopardy. And to make a couple feel even more guilty, it should only be considered after counsel and prayer.

My friend played it by the book. Her bishop played it by the book. He probably read the CHOI and didn't want to do wrong. Her SP played it by the book (and tried to have it both ways, if you ask me).

She had a serious illness. If she got pregnant again, she would be placing her or her child's life in jeopardy. Full stop. This is the point where rational members should make a rational decision that is the best for them. If they want to include the Lord, that is their decision. They should not need to risk talking to a potentially strict bishop who would guilt them even further.



What good does this CHOI vestige do? Absolutely ridiculous.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Looking back at the CHOI, it really is black and white. It should only be considered if the life of the mother and the fetus would be in jeopardy. And to make a couple feel even more guilty, it should only be considered after counsel and prayer.

My friend played it by the book. Her bishop played it by the book. He probably read the CHOI and didn't want to do wrong. Her SP played it by the book (and tried to have it both ways, if you ask me).

She had a serious illness. If she got pregnant again, she would be placing her or her child's life in jeopardy. Full stop. This is the point where rational members should make a rational decision that is the best for them. If they want to include the Lord, that is their decision. They should not need to risk talking to a potentially strict bishop who would guilt them even further.



What good does this CHOI vestige do? Absolutely ridiculous.

I think you are overstating what it says. Here is the text:

"The Church strongly discourages surgical sterilization as an elective form of birth control. Surgical sterilization should be considered only if (1) medical conditions seriously jeopardize life or health or (2) birth defects or serious trauma have rendered a person mentally incompetent and not responsible for his or her actions. Such conditions must be determined by competent medical judgment and in accordance with law. Even then, the persons responsible for this decision should consult with each other and with their bishop and should receive divine confirmation of their decision through prayer." (CHOI, 2010)

The phrase "jeopardize life or health" is so broad you could drive a truck through it. I can't imagine any rational person thinking your friend's case wouldn't qualify.

Also, it technically does not say that the bishop has to OK the decision. In fact, the last sentence implies the ultimate decision is based on a divine OK via prayer, not the bishop. I don't have a problem with that. I can't imagine a devout person not praying about something like this.