Anti-Mormonism is the prejudice of our age

[LA Ute]

I think that guys way off. And it all stems from his initial assumption:


Now, he does say "at least in part," but based on the rest of the quote, it's pretty clear that he means to assume that religious traditions are mostly "knowledge traditions." I suppose I'd have to learn more about what he means by that. But I disagree with the assumption and would restate it by saying "religious traditions are largely belief traditions, so being wrong about religion doesn't matter with respect to political candidates, neither does being really wrong."

Who is wrong and who is right about religious traditions is not objectively knowable. His distinctions aren't about knowledge, they are about bias based on his own subjective beliefs. Because Mormons have FARMS we are not wacky? Come on.

I think he is saying that it's not reasonable to conclude the religion is never relevant to a candidate's fitness to serve. He's just trying to set up a rationale for deciding when it is and isn't relevant.

[Jacob]

Nicholas Kristof says that the supreme moral challenge of the 19th century was slavery, and of the 20th century the fight against totalitarianism, and in this century the paramount moral challenge will be the struggle for gender equality particularly in the developing world. This is a nice summary, in my view. Mormonism has been part of the problem, not of the solution, in its own insular little corner of the free world as to all these challenges.

Mormons are doing fine, and have little ground to complain about bigotry. Mostly they have been justly criticized for racist dogmas (which still appear in the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price), sexism, homophobia, an atavistic view of history, anti-inetellectualism, etc. As UtahDan notes, these have been choices, not immutable characteristics.

SU lecturing our most famous homosexual member about LDS homophobia?

[Jacob]

I think he is saying that it's not reasonable to conclude the religion is never relevant to a candidate's fitness to serve. He's just trying to set up a rationale for deciding when it is and isn't relevant.

And I think his reasoning fails. That's all I'm saying. I say his religion is almost always not relevant. At least not the mere fact of belonging to any specific religion.

[LA Ute]

And I think his reasoning fails. That's all I'm saying. I say his religion is almost always not relevant. At least not the mere fact of belonging to any specific religion.

I agree wth you, and I suspect Reynolds does too. It is hard to imagine situations in which religion would be relevant. The examples of extreme religions (Raelians, Scientology) are always used, but how often will we see a member of one of those faiths as a serious candidate for high office? He's just laying out why he thinks Mormonism is far removed from those outliers.

[Jeff Lebowski]

JB weighs in:

http://www.religiondispatches.org/di...mon_prejudice/

[Paperback Writer]

I agree wth you, and I suspect Reynolds does too. It is hard to imagine situations in which religion would be relevant. The examples of extreme religions (Raelians, Scientology) are always used, but how often will we see a member of one of those faiths as a serious candidate for high office? He's just laying out why he thinks Mormonism is far removed from those outliers.

A Muslim for high office might be a good test of religious tolerence. Fair or not, a Muslim would probably have to do more explaining about his religion and how it would inform his/her political decisions than Mitt Romney.

[SeattleUte]

SU lecturing our most famous homosexual member about LDS homophobia?

I'm waiting for Hopfrog to weigh in and smack me down, say that LDS are tolerant of homosexuals.

[UtahDan]

And how many Scientologists do you know? I think if you are going to exclude potential candidates based on Xenu and auditing, then you can't complain when Mormons are excluded based on polygamy and gold plates, etc. (I'm not saying you are complaining, just speaking generaly).

Jon Travolta for Senate!

I disagree. I can differentiate between beliefs. I don't know any branch Davidians or Heavens Gate followers either. It is a religious person who is much more stuck with saying "if I don't want to be judged for my unusual views then I shouldn't judge anyone else's unusual views."

[UtahDan]

Here's a view from John Mark Reynolds, a professor at Biola University, a small Christian school here in CA:

I very much agree with that formulation as a formulation for whether judging based on religious belief is legitimate or fair. I think that it is legitimate to draw negative inferences based on religion that is extreme, but I don't think Mormonism is extreme. I'm not sure I'm totally comfortable with the idea that if someone does not share my idea of what is extreme and what is normal that they are necessarily a bigot. I think they are wrong and perhaps even foolish, but bigot is too harsh in my opinion.

Much better for people to engage and show why this is wrong than fight to give it a label. Labels as proxies for really discussing the issues are not helpful, IMO. Look how easy it is to eviscerate someone who labels Mormonism a cult for example. Using a loaded term like bigot lets them squirm away by saying "but I am not a bigot" when the real issue is whether what they have said is acceptable or fair.

[hopfrog]

I'm waiting for Hopfrog to weigh in and smack me down, say that LDS are tolerant of homosexuals.

I am determined to stay active even if I am disfellowshipped or excommunicated for my transvestite tendencies or my queer punk videos on YouTube or whatever. Obviously, much as I protest how much I love being a queer Mormon, I ain't comfortable as such, since there is a paranoid part of my psyche that keeps waiting for the day when some Salt Lake City GA tells my stake president that Brother Pugmire needs to amend his lifestyle -- which I will never do. Long Live the Queen.

I had an interesting experience and personal revelation during the four hour film interview for the forthcoming documentary on queer Latter-day Saints, Far Between. The producer/interviewer, Kendall and I were watching some of my freaky vlogs on my YouTube channel, and we began to watch one I recorded with my home teacher. I was suddenly overwhelmed with the spirit and I got weepy. Kendall asked where the emotion was coming from, and I said something like, "It's testimony. And what these tears teach me is that everything else, all of this [and I indicated my drag and punk attire] means nothing compared to the gospel of Jesus Christ and my testimony of it."

As a missionary I remember someone saying something (I think it's scripture) about a double-minded man being unstable in all his ways. I think about that sometimes. I think, am I fooling myself into thinking I can stay active in the church and still live this seemingly deviant lifestyle? The punk rocker in me is determined to do so, almost defiantly. Being "rebellious" comes far more naturally than being righteous.

When God called me back to the church I covenanted with Him that I would never leave the church again, no matter what. I think in voicing to myself that "no matter what" I was even then preparing for the eventual day when the church tells me, "You must change your lifestyle or leave the church." I am determined not to do either. I will never stop attending, even if I have to do so as, once more, a non-member. I have things to offer the church. I really believe that, and the only way I can do so is to stay active -- "no matter what." I need the church in my life, I love the gospel. I won't allow anyone to take it away from me, especially not myself by going inactive again out of anger or dismay.

When I last gave my testimony, last month, and I came out to the ward, and had gobs of LDS people come up and say how much they enjoyed my testimony. I was very gay in sharing my testimony, acting a bit queeny &c. I think there are lots of LDS folk who will be tolerant of my homosexual nature. I know that in 5th Ward I had lots of support, which made it easy for me to be re-baptized. There are two aspects of the church for me -- "The Church" and other saints. "The Church" seems to be trying to become more tolerant of its gay members but I doubt it will ever be tolerant of homosexuality. The saints that I have met seem to be accepting of me, and I am gay up the ass in my mannerism. I delight in being queer. I know there are probably many who abhor me for that. They can kiss my ass.

I don't mind living with contradictions, whatever agony they sometimes inspire. It makes sense to me, my choices regarding my religion and lifestyle, and I'm the one who has to live with it. I relish the challenge, it feels dead punk rock. And it's only for this little mortal time.

[Jeff Lebowski]

God bless you, hopfrog. You are an inspiration.

[PaloAltoCougar]

God bless you, hopfrog. You are an inspiration.

No kidding. At the next CUF Fast & Testimony Meeting, I hope Bro. Hopfrog is the first to get up.

[SeattleUte]

I am determined to stay active even if I am disfellowshipped or excommunicated for my transvestite tendencies or my queer punk videos on YouTube or whatever. Obviously, much as I protest how much I love being a queer Mormon, I ain't comfortable as such, since there is a paranoid part of my psyche that keeps waiting for the day when some Salt Lake City GA tells my stake president that Brother Pugmire needs to amend his lifestyle -- which I will never do. Long Live the Queen.

I had an interesting experience and personal revelation during the four hour film interview for the forthcoming documentary on queer Latter-day Saints, Far Between. The producer/interviewer, Kendall and I were watching some of my freaky vlogs on my YouTube channel, and we began to watch one I recorded with my home teacher. I was suddenly overwhelmed with the spirit and I got weepy. Kendall asked where the emotion was coming from, and I said something like, "It's testimony. And what these tears teach me is that everything else, all of this [and I indicated my drag and punk attire] means nothing compared to the gospel of Jesus Christ and my testimony of it."

As a missionary I remember someone saying something (I think it's scripture) about a double-minded man being unstable in all his ways. I think about that sometimes. I think, am I fooling myself into thinking I can stay active in the church and still live this seemingly deviant lifestyle? The punk rocker in me is determined to do so, almost defiantly. Being "rebellious" comes far more naturally than being righteous.

When God called me back to the church I covenanted with Him that I would never leave the church again, no matter what. I think in voicing to myself that "no matter what" I was even then preparing for the eventual day when the church tells me, "You must change your lifestyle or leave the church." I am determined not to do either. I will never stop attending, even if I have to do so as, once more, a non-member. I have things to offer the church. I really believe that, and the only way I can do so is to stay active -- "no matter what." I need the church in my life, I love the gospel. I won't allow anyone to take it away from me, especially not myself by going inactive again out of anger or dismay.

When I last gave my testimony, last month, and I came out to the ward, and had gobs of LDS people come up and say how much they enjoyed my testimony. I was very gay in sharing my testimony, acting a bit queeny &c. I think there are lots of LDS folk who will be tolerant of my homosexual nature. I know that in 5th Ward I had lots of support, which made it easy for me to be re-baptized. There are two aspects of the church for me -- "The Church" and other saints. "The Church" seems to be trying to become more tolerant of its gay members but I doubt it will ever be tolerant of homosexuality. The saints that I have met seem to be accepting of me, and I am gay up the ass in my mannerism. I delight in being queer. I know there are probably many who abhor me for that. They can kiss my ass.

I don't mind living with contradictions, whatever agony they sometimes inspire. It makes sense to me, my choices regarding my religion and lifestyle, and I'm the one who has to live with it. I relish the challenge, it feels dead punk rock. And it's only for this little mortal time.

Brother Pugmire, that was a very sexy smackdown.

[Moliere]

Not sure if this fits here, but I found this article....ummm....interesting? Do these following statements just seem weird?

But while we Mormons work for acceptance in the larger Christian arena, we must stay alert so we don't commit the same sin we see in others.

"I won't hold your zealots against you," I said, "if you won't hold ours against me." It was the only thing I could think to say.

[Portland Ute]

So, what we have here are Southern "Christians" daring to say that Mormons have weird views and the liberals are using that as kindling to stoke the "Mitt Romney is weird" fires.

People like the Good Pastor (may he be richly blessed) are so entirely myopic. They are completely oblivious to the fact that they, too, hold and even share many ridiculous ideas.

I am sure the Pastor believes dearly in the Bible. The Bible is full of some really crazy shit.

For some reason people like the Pastor bother me more than Bill Maher. I think Maher is a douchebag when it comes to religion. I respect his disbelief, but his mockery I find distasteful. But I have zero respect for the Pastor.

The pastor bothers me in much the same way the "Nazi Mormon" bothers me when they publicly denounce consumption of a diet Coke and share their view that they adhere to the true standards of the Church.

I think it's because, in both cases, the standards they preach are false and without merit and both are expressed only to say, "My faith is greater than your faith." In both cases, there is a non-spiritual ulterior motive.