Church President Succession

[UtahDan]

Wasn't The Church led the the 12 under Brigham Young for 10s of years after JS was killed? I could see them doing that. It would be kind of cool.

It's a can of worms, but there was a huge succession crisis when Joseph died. He had made it clear that Hyrum was next in line but beyond that there was disagreement. The RLDS broke off over the claim that descent was lineal, teh Strangites over the claim of a specific revelation naming Strang in some fashion as a successor, Sidney Rigdon took a shot at just taking over based on charisma, the counsel of 50 was a contender and the quorum of the 12 was a contender. Also William Marks as Nauvoo stake president.

Essentially Brigham just said "I am the president of the 12, no successor is necessary, follow me." Keep in mind that the 12 were initial traveling ministers with authority outside of "Zion" but that the governing body and power center internally was still the counsel of 50 and the stake president, though some of that had begun to shift. Anyway, at the August conference Rigdon made his bid to be "guardian" of the church and Brigham argued that the 12 had all the keys. This is the famous event where Brigham is transfigured into Joseph, though interestingly all of the more than 100 accounts of that came much later and it does not appear in any of the numerous journals of people who were there that day. The church at the time sustained the 12 as having the keys and Brigham as the president of the 12.

It was not until 1847 that Brigham again put the question of forming a new first presidency to the 12. There was no new revelation authorizing it, but they did rely on D&C 107:21-24 as implicit authority to do it. The twelve agreed and later the church ratified it I believe in Iowa.

Interestingly also, John Taylor became next in line first when he was moved ahead of Woodruff when Brigham changed succession from age to seniority, then Brigham also moved him ahead of the two Orsons by fiat and announced it at general conference in 1875. HOWEVER Brigham later than year was still saying that HE (he Brigham) remained the president of the 12 so Taylor was never sustained as president of the 12 while Brigham was alive. When Brigham died in 1877 it was decided by the 12 that the 12 would again become the presiding body of the church, that John Taylor would be the president of the 12 and that Brigham's two counselors would remain as counselors to the 12. The priesthood ratified this in a solemn assembly at conference

In 1880, John Taylor then reorganized the first presidency. There were additional important innovations to how succession worked but they had mostly solidified the process by 1918 when Grant became president. The best resource for information about the succession crisis when Joseph died is Quinn's Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power. For succession thereafter, the best source (and the one I scanned over to refresh my memory) is the Dialog article here.

I know that is a lot of info but it is fascinating, IMO. And having now reviewed it I am much more persuaded that if the president of the 12 were incapacitated at the death of the President of the church, that the 12 would take over as governing body and that they would wait to form a new First Presidency until there was a president of the 12 in full command of his faculties.

[Sullyute]

Why do we retain an apostle that Is permanently incapacitated of the mind? If their calling is to act as a Special Witness, how can they do that if they are incapacitated by dementia or whatnot? Other than tradition,is there any practical reason? In the scenario mentioned above, the refusal to grant emeritus status would be the only thing precluding the reorganization of the First Presidency.

Hypothetically speaking, if an apostle were to become morally unfit for the calling, he would be released immediately. Why wouldn't mental incapacitation likewise make one unfit for the calling?

These are great questions. Let me add one, if they gave emeritus status to Apostles, what about to the Prophet himself? At the end of their lifetimes David McKay, Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer Kimball, Ezra Benson all were more or less incapacitated. Should we have given them emeritus status and moved forward with a new Prophet? I don't know if the membership could handle a change like that.

[DrumNFeather]

These are great questions. Let me add one, if they gave emeritus status to Apostles, what about to the Prophet himself? At the end of their lifetimes David McKay, Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer Kimball, Ezra Benson all were more or less incapacitated. Should we have given them emeritus status and moved forward with a new Prophet? I don't know if the membership could handle a change like that.

I suspect it would depend on the approach that was taken...and I would think they would go with "acting" or some kind of title like that...it would be an interesting situation for sure.

[beefytee]

Sidney Rigdon took a shot at just taking over based on charisma.

Didn't his claim come from being the first counselor in the First Presidency?

[Jacob]

These are great questions. Let me add one, if they gave emeritus status to Apostles, what about to the Prophet himself? At the end of their lifetimes David McKay, Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer Kimball, Ezra Benson all were more or less incapacitated. Should we have given them emeritus status and moved forward with a new Prophet? I don't know if the membership could handle a change like that.

I think the membership could not only handle it, but would welcome it.

[Pheidippides]

Didn't his claim come from being the first counselor in the First Presidency?

Yes and no. He had been estranged for some time.

Also, I don't think Utah Dan is correct on the transfiguration bit. I think Quinn found contemporary journals. But don't quote me.

[Jacob]

I remember being taught that Jesus only called "disciples" among the Nephites because there were already 12 Apostles. I know that there have been Apostles who weren't in the Q12 (e.g. Alvin Dyer), but the idea of emeritus apostle would probably vex the rank and file.

I wasn't taught that and it certainly isn't standard LDS teaching. I was taught that the BOM simply calls apostles disciples, much like the Gospels do. That there is no significant difference. He set up his church in the new world just like in the old.

Anyway, there are currently 15 apostles, not 12. And we used to have people called as Assistant to the 12, like Hinckley was just before becoming a full-fledged member of the 12.

[Jacob]

We should also remember that most members believe that each prophet is called by some strong revelation to the 12--even though there has been more emphasis in recent years on the fact that it is merely the senior Apostle. So there is a perfectly acceptable structure in place to change how these things are decided. If the 12 says they have been inspired to make the prophet emeritus and replace him, I can't see any significant group of members objecting. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Members like to actually hear and see their prophet. So, if the prophet was unable to speak or appear in public, the members quietly pine for a new prophet. At least that's what I think

[falafel]

We should also remember that most members believe that each prophet is called by some strong revelation to the 12--even though there has been more emphasis in recent years on the fact that it is merely the senior Apostle. So there is a perfectly acceptable structure in place to change how these things are decided. If the 12 says they have been inspired to make the prophet emeritus and replace him, I can't see any significant group of members objecting. Quite the opposite, in fact.
Members like to actually hear and see their prophet. So, if the prophet was unable to speak or appear in public, the members quietly pine for a new prophet. At least that's what I think

I think the revelation would have to come from the prophet himself, with the backing of the Q12. If the Q12 came out and said "we've been told that T-Mo isn't the prophet anymore and we're replacing him with Dieter for the time being" I think it would look like a coup.

[Jacob]

I think the revelation would have to come from the prophet himself, with the backing of the Q12. If the Q12 came out and said "we've been told that T-Mo isn't the prophet anymore and we're replacing him with Dieter for the time being" I think it would look like a coup.

It may look a little like that, but look at the results of this poll. I bet the general church membership would have a similar response. Do you really think most members are fine with an incapacitated prophet? No. They want a prophet to speak to them.

[LA Ute]

I have been told (and it makes sense to me) that on the death of the sitting prophet, someone other than the senior apostle could be the next president, but that change from the standard succession would have to be revealed to the senior apostle by the Lord. That doesn't work when the senior apostle is incapacitated.

President Kimball taught that life and death are the controlling factors as to who becomes the senior apostle. (I.e., the Lord is in charge. Not a new concept!) That doesn't directly address the question of an incapacitated prophet, but assuming that life and death really are the controlling factors, then just putting up with an incapacitated prophet until he passes away seems to be the right approach. The remaining apostles would probably look to the 1st counselor in the FP, or perhaps the next-senior apostle if there is no FP, for leadership. When Pres. Benson was unable to do much, Pres. Hinckley pretty much took over, even though he was junior to Pres. Hunter.

[falafel]

It may look a little like that, but look at the results of this poll. I bet the general church membership would have a similar response. Do you really think most members are fine with an incapacitated prophet? No. They want a prophet to speak to them.

I can see the change working if its made after the prophet becomes incapacitated or obviously deficient. I can't see it working if the Prophet is just old. For example, what about President Hunter? That dude was OOOOOLD. Remember how he could barely lift his head to speak during conference? He clearly should have been convalescing somewhere, but it was also obvious that he had all of his mental faculties. I don't think it goes over well if the Q12 just puts him out to pasture without him agreeing.

[Jacob]

I have been told (and it makes sense to me) that on the death of the sitting prophet, someone other than the senior apostle could be the next president, but that change from the standard succession would have to be revealed to the senior apostle by the Lord. That doesn't work when the senior apostle is incapacitated.

President Kimball taught that life and death are the controlling factors as to who becomes the senior apostle. (I.e., the Lord is in charge. Not a new concept!) That doesn't directly address the question of an incapacitated prophet, but assuming that life and death really are the controlling factors, then just putting up with an incapacitated prophet until he passes away seems to be the right approach. The remaining apostles would probably look to the 1st counselor in the FP, or perhaps the next-senior apostle if there is no FP, for leadership. When Pres. Benson was unable to do much, Pres. Hinckley pretty much took over, even though he was junior to Pres. Hunter.

So you subscribe to the idea that the Lord chooses the next prophet by killing off the others? I've never been comfortable with that idea. I think the Lord lets nature takes its course and that he has been OK with his leaders deciding the succession policy. We, of course, have no known revelation on the matter either for or against the current rule.

[Jacob]

I can see the change working if its made after the prophet becomes incapacitated or obviously deficient. I can't see it working if the Prophet is just old. For example, what about President Hunter? That dude was OOOOOLD. Remember how he could barely lift his head to speak during conference? He clearly should have been convalescing somewhere, but it was also obvious that he had all of his mental faculties. I don't think it goes over well if the Q12 just puts him out to pasture without him agreeing.

Not doubt about that.

[pellegrino]

I have been told (and it makes sense to me) that on the death of the sitting prophet, someone other than the senior apostle could be the next president, but that change from the standard succession would have to be revealed to the senior apostle by the Lord. That doesn't work when the senior apostle is incapacitated.

President Kimball taught that life and death are the controlling factors as to who becomes the senior apostle. (I.e., the Lord is in charge. Not a new concept!) That doesn't directly address the question of an incapacitated prophet, but assuming that life and death really are the controlling factors, then just putting up with an incapacitated prophet until he passes away seems to be the right approach. The remaining apostles would probably look to the 1st counselor in the FP, or perhaps the next-senior apostle if there is no FP, for leadership. When Pres. Benson was unable to do much, Pres. Hinckley pretty much took over, even though he was junior to Pres. Hunter.

I never knew Kimball was Catholic.