Living prophets vs. dead prophets

[UtahDan]

Is that really the case with the "mainstream" LDS theology? Is there really a significant divergence of thought?

If you are talking about what is in the articles of faith and the like, then no, you are right there probably isn't. Much is very clear, most of the important things. Much else is unclear, fewer important doctrines in this category. But there is the paradox again, I'm not really qualified to say what is unimportant am I? I mean we all do decide that, but should we?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Cam - Indy is the dude who took the pill that put him back to sleep. That's not a knock on Indy at all but it puts him out of touch withg the problems some members have just like the members who take the other pill have problems relating to Indy's type.

[Indy Coug]

Cam - Indy is the dude who took the pill that put him back to sleep. That's not a knock on Indy at all but it puts him out of touch withg the problems some members have just like the members who take the other pill have problems relating to Indy's type.

I'm not asleep. I'm more than aware of what issues are out there that trouble some people.

However, I'm in the business of analyzing data. I model future outcomes based on identifying the primary variables involved and removing the variables that aren't as important; variables for which measurements may not be as reliable and which also contribute a lot of unnecessary "noise".

[fusnik]

Indy no offense I used the term 'sleep' because of the Matrix movie. I didn't mean to infer that you are a zombie....
Cam - the waters are murky, get used to it. The temple has helped me a lot in this aspect as I believe the ttemple teaches us to discard the church as we see it and enter into new worship withGod. As far as reconciliation between that amd ccurrent dogma, your mind will tire from the mental gymnastics.

[I.J. Reilly]

That's what I was looking for. Sometimes the simplest approach is the best.

[wuapinmon]

or as in the case of my last stake president "men are not allowed to have facial hair".

If my stake president said that to me, my response would sound something like this:

President X, every image that the Church uses of Jesus Christ shows him with a neatly groomed beard. I'm trying to be more Christlike, both inwardly and outwardly. If he pressed the issue, I would remind him that the prophets all had facial hair up until the 2nd World War. If he still persisted, I'd show him the stigmata scars I carved into my hands when I was a missionary. A JOKE, PEOPLE!

[TripletDaddy]

However, I'm in the business of analyzing data. I model future outcomes based on identifying the primary variables involved and removing the variables that aren't as important; variables for which measurements may not be as reliable and which also contribute a lot of unnecessary "noise".

a gospel analogy can be made for just about any profession, I suppose. you are basically justifying your cynicism and lack of empathy because you are professionally trained as an actuary. this has great unintended comedic potential.

I know you were trying to be serious here, so apologies. It just struck me as overly serious and a bit self-important. I am sure that God is very impressed with your automaton ability to cut through the crap and get to the heart of the matter.

[byu71]

if one doctrine that has been taught is wrong, offensive, etc., why are not other, more important and relevant doctrines taught by the church also incorrect for some reason?

It is my humble opinion that way to many things are considered "doctrine" by orthodox members of the church.

For example, I may have mentioned some of these before.

No caffeine, not doctrine although some quote a Prophet as saying otherwise
on TV.

Every young man a missionary, not doctrine, good solid counsel

Porn, anything suggestive that causes you to get a wanger
good warning advice, but not doctrine

No Tatoo's not doctrine

Women not work not doctrine

No Birth Control not doctrine


I don't mind if people want to consider these things as doctrine for them, but
don't go laying your own personally beliefs on me and then try using some
GA quote to try and back your position. If you are right, time will bear you
out to be so.

AS far as chiding and condemning other members, I wish we would stick to the real doctrines, at least as I define them.

[Indy Coug]

a gospel analogy can be made for just about any profession, I suppose. you are basically justifying your cynicism and lack of empathy because you are professionally trained as an actuary. this has great unintended comedic potential.

I know you were trying to be serious here, so apologies. It just struck me as overly serious and a bit self-important. I am sure that God is very impressed with your automaton ability to cut through the crap and get to the heart of the matter.

I'm trying to explain my point of view, not trying to dictate to other people how they should view it. But if I can get some extended smartassery from you in this thread, then I can modify my approach accordingly to better fit with your description above.

[Moliere]

It is my humble opinion that way to many things are considered "doctrine" by orthodox members of the church.

For example, I may have mentioned some of these before.

No caffeine, not doctrine although some quote a Prophet as saying otherwise
on TV.

Every young man a missionary, not doctrine, good solid counsel

Porn, anything suggestive that causes you to get a wanger
good warning advice, but not doctrine

No Tatoo's not doctrine

Women not work not doctrine

No Birth Control not doctrine


I don't mind if people want to consider these things as doctrine for them, but
don't go laying your own personally beliefs on me and then try using some
GA quote to try and back your position. If you are right, time will bear you
out to be so.

AS far as chiding and condemning other members, I wish we would stick to the real doctrines, at least as I define them.

Discerning between commandment and counsel is not that hard as '71 shows above. Well, I'll state that I don't find it that hard. The problem people have is they let counsel become doctrine. My mission president (who is an uber-mormon) used to always tell us taht you can pretty much count the commandments on two hands. Wearing two earrings in one ear or having a tattoo will not get you sent to hell. Such a thought is ridiculous. I have no idea why the church is so worried about such things (probably an image thing).

I rarely shave on Sunday. In fact, I never shave over the weekend. My bishop made a comment about it once and I think it was in jest but I didn't think to myself "crap, the bishop thinks I'm an apostate and he doesn't like me because I am not clean shaven like the brethren." Two years later I still don't shave on weekends and I probably never will. In fact, I'd love to grow a beard but my baby face can't handle the whiskers.

My advice would be to stop letting what you think other people are thinking about you run your life. I'm probably an uber-mormon by CUF standards, but one thing I don't let happen is to let myself worry about what the bishop or the EQP thinks of me.

For example, my EQP made a comment in priesthood yesterday with which I disagreed. I made a comment contradictory to his (in a tactful way). Now, I have no idea what he thought about me doing that because I didn't talk to him afterwards, but honestly I couldn't care less and I doubt he cares also.

[byu71]

Discerning between commandment and counsel is not that hard as '71 shows above. Well, I'll state that I don't find it that hard. The problem people have is they let counsel become doctrine. My mission president (who is an uber-mormon) used to always tell us taht you can pretty much count the commandments on two hands. Wearing two earrings in one ear or having a tattoo will not get you sent to hell. Such a thought is ridiculous. I have no idea why the church is so worried about such things (probably an image thing).

I rarely shave on Sunday. In fact, I never shave over the weekend. My bishop made a comment about it once and I think it was in jest but I didn't think to myself "crap, the bishop thinks I'm an apostate and he doesn't like me because I am not clean shaven like the brethren." Two years later I still don't shave on weekends and I probably never will. In fact, I'd love to grow a beard but my baby face can't handle the whiskers.

My advice would be to stop letting what you think other people are thinking about you run your life. I'm probably an uber-mormon by CUF standards, but one thing I don't let happen is to let myself worry about what the bishop or the EQP thinks of me.

For example, my EQP made a comment in priesthood yesterday with which I disagreed. I made a comment contradictory to his (in a tactful way). Now, I have no idea what he thought about me doing that because I didn't talk to him afterwards, but honestly I couldn't care less and I doubt he cares also.

This is my own personal feeling and nothing concrete to base it on. Much of the counsel is given to avoid falling into disrepute. The first step that could "lead" to something gets labeled as "bad".

For instance, I for the life of me can not call a hot chick in a Bikinni porn, even if at my age a sexual thought crosses my mind. Could it lead to indescretion and breaking of a real commandment later, sure, but in and of itself it isn't porn nor am I breaking a commandment. Don't give me the lust in the heart thing either. I had that one explained by a GA and even if the thought of carnal sin entered my mind, that isn't committing the sin.

Tatoo's, long hair, non-white shirts, ear rings, et. al. are signs of rebellion. Too much rebellion can again lead to the breaking of real commandments, but aren't breaking commandments standing alone.

Wives working, birth control, putting off having kids, putting off marriage makes one more vulnerable to falling away from the church. Again, counsel to prevent the breaking of a sin, not the breaking of a commandment.

My bottom line is as follows and I am not asking anyone else to accept it for themselves. If you can do what you are doing and still get in the Temple honestly, you aren't breaking any commandments.

[Moliere]

And this is the crux of the problem that many people struggle with. If you have to pick and chose, then why do you need them in the first place?

I don't think people are picking and choosing commandments or covenants. They are picking and choosing counsel. There is a line between the two and it is usually pretty bright if you step back and look at it from a distance. BYU 71 explains this pretty well in his post above. the GAs are giving counsel to avoid even starting down a certain path, but walking down that path is not a sin, but going down that path gets you closer to sin.

For instance, we have been commanded to keep the sabbath day holy. The commandment is not to avoid purchasing things or to not attend sporting events. Keeping the sabbath day holy might be one thing to one person and another thing to another person. The key is to try to keep it holy without having to rationalize what you are doing. The other key is to not be judgmental with what another person is doing and we oftentimes fail miserably at this.

The hard part is when you hear some of the doctrines that were thrown around back in the day. The real doctrine of the church is faith, repentance, baptism, holy ghost, temple ordinances/covenants, plan of salvation, etc. There are things we don't understand in these doctrines and oftentimes prophets have tried to expound on these through logic (my opinion) and have failed. But the doctrine that man can only be saved by baptism by those who hold the authority will remain regardless of anything that BY says about the moon.

[1337coug]

This is my own personal feeling and nothing concrete to base it on. Much of the counsel is given to avoid falling into disrepute. The first step that could "lead" to something gets labeled as "bad".

For instance, I for the life of me can not call a hot chick in a Bikinni porn, even if at my age a sexual thought crosses my mind. Could it lead to indescretion and breaking of a real commandment later, sure, but in and of itself it isn't porn nor am I breaking a commandment. Don't give me the lust in the heart thing either. I had that one explained by a GA and even if the thought of carnal sin entered my mind, that isn't committing the sin.

Tatoo's, long hair, non-white shirts, ear rings, et. al. are signs of rebellion. Too much rebellion can again lead to the breaking of real commandments, but aren't breaking commandments standing alone.

Wives working, birth control, putting off having kids, putting off marriage makes one more vulnerable to falling away from the church. Again, counsel to prevent the breaking of a sin, not the breaking of a commandment.

My bottom line is as follows and I am not asking anyone else to accept it for themselves. If you can do what you are doing and still get in the Temple honestly, you aren't breaking any commandments.

I completely agree with this. A couple weeks ago in sunday school I was trying to say exactly what you did but couldn't quite get my point across.

[RobinFinderson]

Cam, as one of the board apostates, I'm happy to report that life after Mormonism can be awesome. It was definitely the right choice for me. That said, it seems that you aren't giving yourself much alternative, other than to leave the church, if you refuse to consider any of the many possible 'middle grounds.' I've known many great Mormons who remained in the church, primarily because they enjoyed the community and the culture, and they felt that church service made their lives meaningful in ways that would be difficult to find outside the church. These people have all rejected the dogmatic approach to 'following the prophets.' They are pursuing 'middle grounds.'

I guess what I am saying is this -- if you want to stay in the church, because you like it, don't feel compelled to leave, just because you don't believe the church is the thing that many of the leaders claim it is. Just believe whatever you want about the church. An interesting thing inevitably happens once you take this position. Everyone stops trying to pull their mullah BS on you. They are simply happy that you want to stick around, and they cut out the crap. Mind you, you won't be serving in the Bishopric, ever, but maybe that is a win as well.