Living prophets vs. dead prophets

[Eddie]

Interesting question.

I'm curious as to what the effects of previous prophets saying stuff has had on what the current prophets say. Are they hesitant to share opinions because they recognize that their personal insights may or may not be 100%?

Meaning - it seemed like in the past the prophets were OK talking about all kinds of stuff that the current guys don't talk about.

Another curious thing - how many times did Gordon B. Hinkley tell everyone that he thought they should get out of debt - followed by specifically stating that he wasn't predicting anything and hadn't had any specific revelations on the matter.

Obviously hindsight is 20/20, but imagine what a different place the world would be for many people if they had followed that advice.

[mrluchini]

How many of Brigham Young's "errant" or controversial teachings have any real relevance for how we live Christlike lives in the 21st century? Does Adam-God, or cheese content of the moon, play any role in how I raise my children, treat my wife, fulfill my church callings, view the efficacy of the Atonement?

IMO, most of the old vs new prophet "conflicts" are on topics far afield from the doctrinal basics upon which the practice of my religion is predicated.

The only problem that I have with this line of thinking is that much of what is said by current prophets has nothing to do with my salvation, such as "only one earring per ear" or as in the case of my last stake president "men are not allowed to have facial hair".

Now if I follow the same logic (which I do) that I will do what I want because such comments from church leaders are their opinion and do not play a role in my salvation, I am looked at as an apostate at some level.

Many in the church would argue that by not following leaders counsel, no matter how ridiculous, you are risking your salvation. So, the conundrum is, if we can pick and choose what is relevant to us regarding teachings of old prophets, then we should be able to do the same regarding current prophets. The problem is we all know that is not how the majority of active LDS see it.

[fusnik]

Cam, you are a smart dude. We're homeys, we've gamed a lot together, I know what kind of car you drive and what that does to your sex life, etc....suggestion, jump down the rabbit hole. Very few here with modern sensibility and reason would support an organization similar to ours, if it was presented on our doorsteps. (Mind you, many here think there is no way Obama can like white people since he sat in Rev Wright's church even though many here sat in SS when the negro was considered a cursed race). You'll be presented with two pills, a new existence, or your current train of thought. I suggest you take the pill that forces you to answer the questions you are starting to ask. You may leave, ala Robin, you may stay akin to SEIQ, either way your life will be a richer existence and you won't put a Coed through the nightmare of losing a husband to anti-mormon propoganda.

[byu71]

We would all get along better if we accepted that everything said is not commandment, but council.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Many in the church would argue that by not following leaders counsel, no matter how ridiculous, you are risking your salvation. So, the conundrum is, if we can pick and choose what is relevant to us regarding teachings of old prophets, then we should be able to do the same regarding current prophets. The problem is we all know that is not how the majority of active LDS see it.

As nobody is perfect, there is not a soul in the church that doesn't pick and choose what counsel to follow.

[mrluchini]

As nobody is perfect, there is not a soul in the church that doesn't pick and choose what counsel to follow.

I agree with you but what bothers me are those that look down their nose at you for doing such even though they are doing it themselves on some level as well.

[Indy Coug]

I've used Excel for 15 years. I am an "expert" user, yet there are all sorts of functionality that I don't know how to use, nor am I interested in learning how to use because it doesn't help me do what I need to get done on a daily basis; and if 15 years of intensive use is any guide, I won't need it in the future.

That's how I view a lot of the more controversial subjects that old and new prophets talk about that some people get hung up on.

[The_Tick]

I agree with you but what bothers me are those that look down their nose at you for doing such even though they are doing it themselves on some level as well.

I agree with you completely. And my wife will chime in here, because this is in her wheelhouse.

I have resigned myself to living my life "within" the LDS church, but not letting the church run my life. (While still observing the covenants that I have made.)

I do the following:

Go when I want
Tell people no
Don't judge, because I don't care
Don't suffer guilt

Life has been much more enjoyable. I don't stress out anymore. When folks call and express concern I thank them. It truely is awesome that you took time out of your day to miss me. See you next week.

I am better for having the church in my life than I would be without it. It became much better though when I took back control.

As far as Prophetic and local leader council....I am going to take it under advisement, but still do what I want. The Lord may slap me around, he may not. But I would rather take it from him than someone else.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I agree with you but what bothers me are those that look down their nose at you for doing such even though they are doing it themselves on some level as well.

You might want to turn that around and look at it as a problem you have. Why let what others might be thinking bother you so much? Life is too short for that, amigo.

[mrluchini]

You might want to turn that around and look at it as a problem you have. Why let what others might be thinking bother you so much? Life is too short for that, amigo.

That is probably pretty good advice. My problem is that a few years ago when I started to become disenchanted with the church and we stopped going, I was great. It didn't bother me what those in my ward or my neighbors thought when I was out mowing the grass on Sunday.

Now that we have started attending again, I have started to let it bother me more again. I guess I need to just let it go and attend on Sunday but not let anything bother me. But being a left brain accountant, I have a hard time letting some of the crazy things go that I hear on Sundays. I seem to contantley have my wife's elbow in my side telling me to shut up and let it go.

[old_gregg]

How many of Brigham Young's "errant" or controversial teachings have any real relevance for how we live Christlike lives in the 21st century? Does Adam-God, or cheese content of the moon, play any role in how I raise my children, treat my wife, fulfill my church callings, view the efficacy of the Atonement?

IMO, most of the old vs new prophet "conflicts" are on topics far afield from the doctrinal basics upon which the practice of my religion is predicated.

i agree with you that there is zero practical value in debating such minutiae. but the fact that a prophet of god taught that interracial marriage, an offense punishable by death on the spot, would never be acceptable is extremely confusing and probably illogical, unless the nature of our prophets is substantially different than i current understand it. imo, if we can acknowledge that prophets are wrong on doctrinal issues, that opens the floodgates that end up in a prophet not, in fact, being called of god, but being appointed by the insular, homogeneous, usually out of touch quorum of the 12.

I suggest you take the pill that forces you to answer the questions you are starting to ask. You may leave, ala Robin, you may stay akin to SEIQ, either way your life will be a richer existence and you won't put a Coed through the nightmare of losing a husband to anti-mormon propoganda.

i'm able to reconcile most other traditionally problematic aspects of the church (polygamy, book of abraham, etc.). but the problem of modern prophets is something i just haven't been able to get past. i definitely agree with your advice, though; i'm either in or i'm out, there's really no middle ground. if prophets are called of god, and everything they say is doctrine, i can deal with that. if it's murkier than that, i don't think i can reconcile direct doctrinal contradiction.

The only problem that I have with this line of thinking is that much of what is said by current prophets has nothing to do with my salvation, such as "only one earring per ear" or as in the case of my last stake president "men are not allowed to have facial hair".

i think these types of "modern revelations" are very comparable to the word of wisdom. there is no practical reason to reject tea and most alcohol (at least any more of a reason than there is to reject any number of other awful things). these commandments give a chance to obey, to adhere because god via his prophet said so. this is why i think it's so troubling for the church if the prophets are at the top of the hierarchy, but not speaking personally with god.

As nobody is perfect, there is not a soul in the church that doesn't pick and choose what counsel to follow.

but shouldn't christ's church on earth not cherry pick which doctrines its representatives from god have made public? when we as members decide what to follow, it's a disobedient sin. i feel like when the church does it, it's socio political pandering.

That's how I view a lot of the more controversial subjects that old and new prophets talk about that some people get hung up on.

the problem of cherry picking applies here. if one doctrine that has been taught is wrong, offensive, etc., why are not other, more important and relevant doctrines taught by the church also incorrect for some reason?

I am better for having the church in my life than I would be without it. It became much better though when I took back control.

i miss your old avatar. this is an argument i hear advanced very frequently. "the church does good things, and it makes me a better person." the question then becomes, is it the organization that makes me the best possible person i could be? why am i required to give 10% of my gross income, spend many hours at meetings, abstain from substances that could actually benefit my body, etc., in order to be a better person? i just don't find that particularly compelling. i think those resources would be better directed at direct charity work, rather than everything the church is involved in that is secondary to charity.

i really am liking this thread, by the way. thanks to all for participating.

[Jarid in Cedar]

i agree with you that there is zero practical value in debating such minutiae. but the fact that a prophet of god taught that interracial marriage, an offense punishable by death on the spot, would never be acceptable. imo, if we can acknowledge that prophets are wrong on doctrinal issues, that opens the floodgates that end up in a prophet not, in fact, being called of god, but being appointed by the insular, homogeneous, usually out of touch quorum of the 12.

And this is the crux of the problem that many people struggle with. If you have to pick and chose, then why do you need them in the first place?

[UtahDan]

IMO, most of the old vs new prophet "conflicts" are on topics far afield from the doctrinal basics upon which the practice of my religion is predicated.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but could the same not be said of most of LDS Church v. Other Christian Church conflicts? I agree with your point actually, but it is hard to apply it in the face of a faith system that prescribes and proscribes thought and action in a pretty detailed way. It is a paradox to have modern prophets and yet not be able to readily identify what is authoritative and what is not, no?

[Indy Coug]

It is a paradox to have modern prophets and yet not be able to readily identify what is authoritative and what is not, no?

Is that really the case with the "mainstream" LDS theology? Is there really a significant divergence of thought?

[fusnik]

Cam - Indy is the dude who took the pill that put him back to sleep. That's not a knock on Indy at all but it puts him out of touch withg the problems some members have just like the members who take the other pill have problems relating to Indy's type.