Daniel Sorensen's remarks...

[Goatnapper'96]

BAN HIM!!

I can tell I need to spend more time here. Two days ago Lebowski's horrifying crack about male secretaries and nurses, now this. And form progressive Mormons. I shudder to think what real Mormons say behind closed doors.

Bigot. Why are progessive mormons not real?

[TripletDaddy]

uh, yeah. Embarrassing, really.

I'm trying to understand what you just did. Better said, I'm trying to understand if you understand what you just did.

[Solon]

Sports, religion & marketing can be a very dangerous mixture.

Strikes me as the typical LDS "we're important, we're misunderstood, and we have something to prove!" routine.

Sometimes sports are cool because they don't really mean anything.

[Jacob]

Ok...I reread it and I see what people are objecting to--the whole "white boys" thought. That is probblematic because even if it is poorly worded, it belies something deep down that he really thinks. He's young, he has a lot to learn about life and nuance, so I wouldn't crucify him for it, but I would definitely sit down with him as a coach and discuss where that came from.

What is it that it belies? I don't get what you are objecting to? Is it that he feels whites are generally not as athletic as blacks? Can't be, since that's a true statement and hardly anyone disagrees. Or is it that he think's whites are as good as blacks, but the media generally disparages whites? Is that objectionable?

[TripletDaddy]

BAN HIM!!

I can tell I need to spend more time here. Two days ago Lebowski's horrifying crack about male secretaries and nurses, now this. And form progressive Mormons. I shudder to think what real Mormons say behind closed doors.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8090441AAcCPXU

[Ma'ake]

Out of curiosity why does this bother you folks so much? Is it some need to avoid cognitive dissonance? Of course the University financed by the LDS Church is going to emphasize that a core purpose of the University is to further the mission of the LDS Church. You can rant about that all you want but I think it is a little silly.

Now one can rant unsilly against those who would conclude that every mormon has an obligation to support BYU because a core purpose of BYU is to further the interests of the LDS Church, but to rant against the purpose is dumb IMO. It is dumb even if the imperfect folks most often in the spotlight concerning BYU are stupid athletes who often say dumb things that could be self-defeating to that core purpose.

The relationship between missionary work and conversion is very similar to the relationship between marketing and sales. Not all marketing is designed to lead immediately to direct sales.

I think there is considerable risk in associating a college athletics team with religious "sales". Maybe the marketing wizards in the Church have figured it out and determined that the potential market for members is worth the baggage in pushing the Mormon brand via sports.

With the extent of the exposure on ESPN - I think all games but one this year, right? - and the inevitable leaking of the "real" purpose of BYU sports to the masses, along with some ill-advised remarks here & there (with some overt censorship by the D-News), with an audience that will overwhelmingly not view the missionary message in a positive manner (especially in the Conservative Christian south)... I think there is considerable risk of blow back.

I know when somebody asks me "how do you feel about owning your own business and becoming rich?" I'll jump through a hedge line to escape. If AmWay had a university and sports team, I'd steer very wide to avoid it.

Maybe it's all worth it. What is the conversion percentage in the missionary effort overall in the US? I imagine the hit ratio is fairly low, in the low single digits. There's certainly a lot of people not interested in joining the LDS church, but clearly there is a significant market that likely hasn't been fully explored.

[SCcoug]

Agreed.

Also, I've occasionally wondered if there is latent racism in statements about how BYU's players are "smarter."

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[SeattleUte]

I think there is considerable risk in associating a college athletics team with religious "sales". Maybe the marketing wizards in the Church have figured it out and determined that the potential market for members is worth the baggage in pushing the Mormon brand via sports.

With the extent of the exposure on ESPN - I think all games but one this year, right? - and the inevitable leaking of the "real" purpose of BYU sports to the masses, along with some ill-advised remarks here & there (with some overt censorship by the D-News), with an audience that will overwhelmingly not view the missionary message in a positive manner (especially in the Conservative Christian south)... I think there is considerable risk of blow back.

I know when somebody asks me "how do you feel about owning your own business and becoming rich?" I'll jump through a hedge line to escape. If AmWay had a university and sports team, I'd steer very wide to avoid it.

Maybe it's all worth it. What is the conversion percentage in the missionary effort overall in the US? I imagine the hit ratio is fairly low, in the low single digits. There's certainly a lot of people not interested in joining the LDS church, but clearly there is a significant market that likely hasn't been fully explored.

Ma'ake, this should not offend you. You know what I always say, there's something wrong, something deeply disturbed about active LDS who do not love BYU.

[Sullyute]

Out of curiosity why does this bother you folks so much? Is it some need to avoid cognitive dissonance? Of course the University financed by the LDS Church is going to emphasize that a core purpose of the University is to further the mission of the LDS Church. You can rant about that all you want but I think it is a little silly.

Now one can rant unsilly against those who would conclude that every mormon has an obligation to support BYU because a core purpose of BYU is to further the interests of the LDS Church, but to rant against the purpose is dumb IMO. It is dumb even if the imperfect folks most often in the spotlight concerning BYU are stupid athletes who often say dumb things that could be self-defeating to that core purpose.

The relationship between missionary work and conversion is very similar to the relationship between marketing and sales. Not all marketing is designed to lead immediately to direct sales.

As petty as it sounds, semantics have a lot to do with it. I would have no problem with football players (or any student athlete) saying that they were ambassadors for BYU and therefore by association ambassadors for the Church.

I have an issue with sports and athletes being seen as "missionaries" or "missionary work". This in my mind degrades true missionaries and the true purpose of the Church. Does Boston College, TCU, SMU, Gonzaga, St Mary's and all of the other religious institutions' student athletes refer to themselves as missionary tools too?

Based on the analogy of Commando above, anything that brings publicity to the church and gets people talking about the church is missionary work. Going to a football game is missionary work because some non-member will see all these excited fans and want to talk about it. Working or even shopping at the new City Creek Mall will be missionary work because it supports the church and gets people talking about the church. Running for political office is missionary work because how often does the church come up when we speak of Harry Reid, Mitt Romney, Russell Pearce, Chris Buttars, et al. Michael Pratt, the Seminary teacher, was doing missionary work when had sex with his 16 old student, because it got people talking about the church.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is just the cognitive dissonance of having a football team that I hate represent a Church that I love. I just wish that my Church would keeps their sports and their religion as seperate as possible.

[Portland Ute]

I heard someone comment on the radio this morning that it wasn't just the white boys comment, but the fact that it was related to spreading the gospel, showing the world what the LDS church is about.

Also, the idea that the "White boys" were going to "go down there" and "dominate". I think most would agree that kind of language is probably not very wise when talking about traveling to the southern U.S.

I watched the video from Jay Drew. I don't see or hear any malicious intent, but like ER and SIEQ suggested, the innocent comments may come from some deeper lack of awareness, naivete or, even worse, ingrained ideas of race.

I don't think he meant harm. But even assuming he meant no harm, his comments are a bit confusing. How exactly would a BYU team comprised of a bunch of white boys (assuming that was even true) change perceptions about BYU or the LDS church? Really, that would just reinforce the perceptions.

I think using the term "white boys" obviously connotes the opposing team wouldn't be white boys....and that becomes an issue of race which is problematic.

[MarkGrace]

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is just the cognitive dissonance of having a football team that I hate represent a Church that I love.

Nail on the head.

[Goatnapper'96]

I think there is considerable risk in associating a college athletics team with religious "sales". Maybe the marketing wizards in the Church have figured it out and determined that the potential market for members is worth the baggage in pushing the Mormon brand via sports.

With the extent of the exposure on ESPN - I think all games but one this year, right? - and the inevitable leaking of the "real" purpose of BYU sports to the masses, along with some ill-advised remarks here & there (with some overt censorship by the D-News), with an audience that will overwhelmingly not view the missionary message in a positive manner (especially in the Conservative Christian south)... I think there is considerable risk of blow back.
I know when somebody asks me "how do you feel about owning your own business and becoming rich?" I'll jump through a hedge line to escape. If AmWay had a university and sports team, I'd steer very wide to avoid it.

Maybe it's all worth it. What is the conversion percentage in the missionary effort overall in the US? I imagine the hit ratio is fairly low, in the low single digits. There's certainly a lot of people not interested in joining the LDS church, but clearly there is a significant market that likely hasn't been fully explored.

Ma'ake I have read you for a long time. The consistent thread is always a subtle warning that what BYU does or is doing could bring to pass some cataclysmic event for BYU and the LDS Church. Deep down inside you just can't reconcile how such an antiquated and parochial institution keeps finding success. It must be such an intense enigma for you to deal with. I wish you well on your search for answers, but I think the demise of BYU is not just around the corner. It is unfortunate but somehow, someway I doubt the real decision makers are interpreting the data like you. Obviously, they are just morons.

My point on sales and marketing is thus. Much of what people do wrt to marketing is branding and projecting an image the marketers hope will be accepted. I know mormons pretty well, and as Solon puts out they are culturally ingrained to want acceptance and recognition. Playing intercollegiate athletics at as high a level as they can within their self-imposed restraints (mostly HC, avoiding unseemly salaries for successful HCs, and Sunday play) is vitally important. I believe that the decision makers are more than willing to take the negative exposure that competing in that arena brings because they believe it also brings beneficial exposure. That is how marketing is, when you project your brand and throw yourself into the market you are not able to totally control how others will interpret your brand. I know it is crystal clear to you how that is interpreted by others, but somehow methinks the decision makers just don't see it like you do.

[Portland Ute]

As petty as it sounds, semantics have a lot to do with it. I would have no problem with football players (or any student athlete) saying that they were ambassadors for BYU and therefore by association ambassadors for the Church.

I have an issue with sports and athletes being seen as "missionaries" or "missionary work". This in my mind degrades true missionaries and the true purpose of the Church. Does Boston College, TCU, SMU, Gonzaga, St Mary's and all of the other religious institutions' student athletes refer to themselves as missionary tools too?

Based on the analogy of Commando above, anything that brings publicity to the church and gets people talking about the church is missionary work. Going to a football game is missionary work because some non-member will see all these excited fans and want to talk about it. Working or even shopping at the new City Creek Mall will be missionary work because it supports the church and gets people talking about the church. Running for political office is missionary work because how often does the church come up when we speak of Harry Reid, Mitt Romney, Russell Pearce, Chris Buttars, et al. Michael Pratt, the Seminary teacher, was doing missionary work when had sex with his 16 old student, because it got people talking about the church.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe it is just the cognitive dissonance of having a football team that I hate represent a Church that I love. I just wish that my Church would keeps their sports and their religion as seperate as possible.

The reason those schools don't produce this type of comment is that they aren't associated with churches that aggressively proselyte.

[MarkGrace]

btw, I would even say that Utah athletics has something of a similar impact, though to an obviously lesser degree. Having spent a lot of time outside of Utah, in my experience to most people the University of Utah = Mormon, whether that's true or not on an individual level. I was going to college in California when the Utes made their Final Four run, and it sparked a lot of talk about the church.

[Goatnapper'96]

I heard someone comment on the radio this morning that it wasn't just the white boys comment, but the fact that it was related to spreading the gospel, showing the world what the LDS church is about.

Also, the idea that the "White boys" were going to "go down there" and "dominate". I think most would agree that kind of language is probably not very wise when talking about traveling to the southern U.S.

I watched the video from Jay Drew. I don't see or hear any malicious intent, but like SIEQ suggested, the innocent comments may come from some deeper lack of awareness, naivete or, even worse, ingrained ideas of race.

I don't think he meant harm. But even assuming he meant no harm, his comments are a bit confusing. How exactly would a BYU team comprised of a bunch of white boys (assuming that was even true) change perceptions about BYU or the LDS church? Really, that would just reinforce the perceptions.

I think using the term "white boys" obviously connotes the opposing team wouldn't be white boys....and that becomes and issue of race which is problematic.

It is a confusing quote because he seems to jump back and forth beteen athletic and social perceptions. I think the changing perceptions comments reference the perception that BYU is not that athletic. It is confusing for these kids to be the standard bearers for a world-wide religious organization. It is a lot to ask of a 22 year old!