Surprised this apologetic view of polygamy hasn't come up here yet

[LA Ute]

I really like this post. It's a good summary and explanation and defines pretty well where I fit, which is that I don't mind studying the history and I cut JS some slack (I've got hormones too you know) but I really don't like the "there's nothing to see here" approach. The more I study the NT the more I realize that all church leaders were flawed and none of them had a very direct line to revelation unless they really and truly needed it.

Thanks LA for posting this.

I think there are lots of thoughtful members who are where you and I are. FWIW, and just to be clear, it's long been my approach always to give JS the benefit of the doubt. I know that's not everyone's approach, but it works great for me.

[wuapinmon]

I think there are lots of thoughtful members who are where you and I are. FWIW, and just to be clear, it's long been my approach always to give JS the benefit of the doubt. I know that's not everyone's approach, but it works great for me.

You sort of have to to keep your testimony of all the other stuff he did. Well, I have to. Otherwise, he looks like countless other cult leaders who used charisma, power, and authority to bed lots of women. It's almost a perfect setup. Married or not, you're a prophet, god said for me to marry you. We consummate the marriage, perhaps multiple times, then on to the next wife. I have a revelation to back up my claims. I can get more if need be.

I have to give him the benefit of the doubt, because this same tree produced the branches that are:

1. The Book of Mormon
2. The LDS Church
3. D&C

If I don't give him the benefit of the doubt, then I become an agnostic, hoping for spiritual experiences in things like books, smiles, hugs from my kids, and unspoken moments shared with my wife where no one speaks but we feel at peace just being near each other.

I remember what it was like to not believe that there was a God, and that this is all there is. I'd rather not go back, so I give him the benefit of the doubt, even though he often leaves me thinking, "WHAT THE ****, JOSEPH!?"

[LA Ute]

You sort of have to to keep your testimony of all the other stuff he did. Well, I have to. Otherwise, he looks like countless other cult leaders who used charisma, power, and authority to bed lots of women. It's almost a perfect setup. Married or not, you're a prophet, god said for me to marry you. We consummate the marriage, perhaps multiple times, then on to the next wife. I have a revelation to back up my claims. I can get more if need be.

I have to give him the benefit of the doubt, because this same tree produced the branches that are:

1. The Book of Mormon
2. The LDS Church
3. D&C

If I don't give him the benefit of the doubt, then I become an agnostic, hoping for spiritual experiences in things like books, smiles, hugs from my kids, and unspoken moments shared with my wife where no one speaks but we feel at peace just being near each other.

I remember what it was like to not believe that there was a God, and that this is all there is. I'd rather not go back, so I give him the benefit of the doubt....

Yep.

[UtahDan]

If I don't give him the benefit of the doubt, then I become an agnostic, hoping for spiritual experiences in things like books, smiles, hugs from my kids, and unspoken moments shared with my wife where no one speaks but we feel at peace just being near each other.

You just made what I think are all the best things in life sound second rate.

[wuapinmon]

You just made what I think are all the best things in life sound second rate.

You're not reading it right. Those are the true joys in life. But, those are open to us all, regardless of spirituality. To have to resort to those things to fill a spiritual void brought on by choosing not to give Joseph the benefit of the doubt is not something I want to do--to not have to imbue them with meaning I used to derive elsewhere. I want the outpouring of the Spirit promised so many times, but so seldom delivered. The more obedient to the Gospel I've gotten in life, the less and less I feel anything that could be called "The Spirit."

[UtahDan]

You're not reading it right. Those are the true joys in life. But, those are open to us all, regardless of spirituality. To have to resort to those things to fill a spiritual void brought on by choosing not to give Joseph the benefit of the doubt is not something I want to do--to not have to imbue them with meaning I used to derive elsewhere. I want the outpouring of the Spirit promised so many times, but so seldom delivered. The more obedient to the Gospel I've gotten in life, the less and less I feel anything that could be called "The Spirit."

I understand what you are saying. To me it feels like you are chasing a mirage when the genuine article is right at your feet. That is just my perspective from where I stand, I hope you won't be offended by that. I can see why it seems otherwise to you. But a lot of what religion does is tell you what is wrong with you and what you are missing then offers to fill a void you would never have otherwise known was there.

[myboynoah]

I understand what you are saying. To me it feels like you are chasing a mirage when the genuine article is right at your feet. That is just my perspective from where I stand, I hope you won't be offended by that. I can see why it seems otherwise to you. But a lot of what religion does is tell you what is wrong with you and what you are missing then offers to fill a void you would never have otherwise known was there.

Perhaps it is a mirage. Smith's vision of the mirage is very appealing, and for many, it offers very tangible results, making it very much less than a mirage.

The genius of Smith's religion was that it told us what is right with us and what we can be, not that there is a void, but that there is more out there to experience and enjoy.

I'm here along with Noah and his younger brother while mrs. myboynoah gets the girls set up at the schools in the U.S. It has been a good experience, especially as Noah struggles with football practice and the other things that life throws at a 15-year-old. Tears come to my eyes as I watch him in all the insecurities and vulnerabilities of a young man, reflecting on how I felt at that age, offering my unconditional love and trying to offer something that will help (Gospel insights). He listens, accepts my hugs and even my kisses, and moves forward. How proud and happy I am. Putting all of this into the eternal context provided my Smith enhances that joy.

A mirage? Perhaps, but I don't think so. Either way, it's a great ride.

[wuapinmon]

But a lot of what religion does is tell you what is wrong with you and what you are missing then offers to fill a void you would never have otherwise known was there.

Having not always been a church member, or even a believer in any kind of higher power, and yet having felt that void without anyone telling me that it was a spiritual void, I have to respectfully disagree. There is a longing for spirituality that religion does not create, and I would argue that it is universal, though not necessarily universally recognized. Perhaps I confused it with "belonging to something" in my youth, but I felt a surge in me at church when I wore a younger man's clothes.

I went to other churches, lots of them, not all of them Christian: only Mormonism filled the void.

[Sullyute]

Wow, I just saw this new podcast on Mormon Stories. I am interested in how he will refute those "myths" below...

In this episode Dr. Brian C. Hales discusses 12 myths regarding Joseph Smith’s practice of polygamy.

1.Joseph Smith had a reputation as a womanizer.
2.The Joseph Smith – Fanny Alger relationship was not a plural marriage.
3.Joseph Smith’s polygamy was all about sex, in other words, “multiply and replenish the earth.”
4.Joseph Smith had no children by his plural wives.
5.Joseph Smith had sexual relations with 14 year olds.
6.John C. Bennett was a polygamy insider in Nauvoo.
7.None of Joseph Smith’s plural marriages were non-sexual “eternity-only” sealings.
8.Joseph Smith’s teachings allow sexual polyandry.
9.Some of Joseph Smith’s marriages included sexual polyandry.
10.Joseph sent men on missions so he could be sealed to their wives.
11.Joseph Smith threatened to destroy the reputation of any woman that turned him down.
12.Emma Smith never supported plural marriage.

[Indy Coug]

Wow, I just saw this new podcast on Mormon Stories. I am interested in how he will refute those "myths" below...

I have no interest in podcasts, so is this available in written format?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Wow, I just saw this new podcast on Mormon Stories. I am interested in how he will refute those "myths" below...

If that list is accurate, it sounds like Richard Bushman was pushing a lot of myths in RSR.

[jay santos]

I have no interest in podcasts, so is this available in written format?

You can download the ppt at mormonstories or you can peruse through Brian Hales website at JosephSmithsPolygamy.com.

I've listened to a lot of the podcast so far. Pretty interesting stuff. Brian Hanks I guess is considered one of the if not the top historian on the topic of Josephp Smith and polygamy. And he is active, believing LDS. And not in a ProgMo/Terryl Givens/NOM kind of way. He seems to really believe in Joseph Smith in a very literal way.

a few interesting tidbits so far:

1. Eliza Snow (in her own handwriting) lists Fanny Alger as one of Joseph's wives in a document. I think this is new info and kind of mind blowing.
2. He believes at least 12 and up to 15 of the marriages were sexual.
3. He believes Joseph is guilty of no sexual impropriety, including Fanny Alger. He firmly believes all of these marriages were ordained of God and done through proper order and no sex or sexual advances outside of these.
4. He claims Joseph's peers, even his enemies, never accused him of sexual impropriety. And all those kinds of claims were fabricated after the fact.
5. He believes there are two documented children of Joseph's and many other possibilities.

[Pheidippides]

Surprised this apologetic view of polygamy hasn't come up here yet

If that list is accurate, it sounds like Richard Bushman was pushing a lot of myths in RSR.

Some of those statements are cleverly-worded strawmen. But I agree with you otherwise.

[splitbamboo]

Brian Hales website at JosephSmithsPolygamy.com.

Is there a template for this kind of nasty website? One look and you're ready to hit backspace after loading that website. Can't say much for your credibility with that kind of site.

[Harry Tic]

And not in a ProgMo/Terryl Givens/NOM kind of way.

Terryl Givens? NOM?