Surprised this apologetic view of polygamy hasn't come up here yet

[LA Ute]

No, we are the splinter denomination. Not in terms of organizational legacy, perhaps, but in practice. Consider that Martin Luther looked at the church and pointed out all the things he thought were wrong, nailed them to his door, and changed practice and theology. On our side, the mainstream LDS church changed it's practice and theology and the FLDS didn't follow suit. Both of those examples are grossly simplified, but when you view this as an exercise in doctrine and theology and not one of organization the analogy is backwards.

I see your argument, although I disagree with it. My point is that the LDS church is not responsible for the beliefs or actions of the FLDS church and it is unfair to the LDS church to mix up the two organizations.

By the way, I know that some polygamist sects popped up long after the manifestoes and their founders were never members of the LDS church. Is the FLDS one of those, or does it date back to dissenting members of the LDS church? I don't know.

[cowboy]

I don't want to freak anybody out here, but why can't polygammy (and yes, polyandry) be eternal principles? I think we could be looking at these things through mortal, 21st century eyes without considering the bigger picture.

I've been married for nearly twenty years (okay, 17, but it feels like 20.) If one of us died, the other would remarry, and spend the next 50 years with the other spouse. Speaking for myself, I love my wife dearly, and wouldn't want to be unsealed from her if I remarried. On the other hand, I would probably have the same feelings for wife #2 after 50 years. Why should I have to choose in that situation? Well, because they'd probabaly kill each other in the afterlife if they had to share me. But jealousy, which is what would drive the celestial catfight will (supposedly) not exist in the hereafter, sharing should not be a big deal.

Likewise, if I don't have to choose which wife I love more, my wife shouldn't have to choose which husband she wants to keep if I'm run over by a tractor tomorrow. I hate the thought of sharing her, but maybe it will be possible if I'm not prone to jealousy like I am in my mortal existence. I imagine I will be okay with it if I'm resurrected as a perfect, understanding, and loving person - especially if husband #2 is resurrected without testicles.

[LA Ute]

I don't want to freak anybody out here, but why can't polygammy (and yes, polyandry) be eternal principles? I think we could be looking at these things through mortal, 21st century eyes without considering the bigger picture.

I've been married for nearly twenty years (okay, 17, but it feels like 20.) If one of us died, the other would remarry, and spend the next 50 years with the other spouse. Speaking for myself, I love my wife dearly, and wouldn't want to be unsealed from her if I remarried. On the other hand, I would probably have the same feelings for wife #2 after 50 years. Why should I have to choose in that situation? Well, because they'd probabaly kill each other in the afterlife if they had to share me. But jealousy, which is what would drive the celestial catfight will (supposedly) not exist in the hereafter, sharing should not be a big deal.

Likewise, if I don't have to choose which wife I love more, my wife shouldn't have to choose which husband she wants to keep if I'm run over by a tractor tomorrow. I hate the thought of sharing her, but maybe it will be possible if I'm not prone to jealousy like I am in my mortal existence. I imagine I will be okay with it if I'm resurrected as a perfect, understanding, and loving person - especially if husband #2 is resurrected without testicles.

I nominate this post for a Cuffie.

[Pheidippides]

I see your argument, although I disagree with it. My point is that the LDS church is not responsible for the beliefs or actions of the FLDS church and it is unfair to the LDS church to mix up the two organizations.

By the way, I know that some polygamist sects popped up long after the manifestoes and their founders were never members of the LDS church. Is the FLDS one of those, or does it date back to dissenting members of the LDS church? I don't know.

I think it's a matter of perspective too: Catholics and Lutherans are still both Christian. There's little distinction to an outsider. And though we may claim it's not fair to the LDS to mix the two organizations (I agree), is it any more fair to try to foreclose the use of Mormons to the FLDS at the same time we're trying to stop evangelicals from doing the same to us with the term Christian? Again, it's a matter of perspective and what side of the fence you are on as to where the fence should be.

The FLDS is not a latecomer to the game. Most of the polygamist sects aren't. The history would make a fascinating book - it involves all sorts of power plays and murder. Much like our own, actually.

[SeattleUte]

I think it's a matter of perspective too: Catholics and Lutherans are still both Christian. There's little distinction to an outsider. And though we may claim it's not fair to the LDS to mix the two organizations (I agree), is it any more fair to try to foreclose the use of Mormons to the FLDS at the same time we're trying to stop evangelicals from doing the same to us with the term Christian? Again, it's a matter of perspective and what side of the fence you are on as to where the fence should be.

The FLDS is not a latecomer to the game. Most of the polygamist sects aren't. The history would make a fascinating book - it involves all sorts of power plays and murder. Much like our own, actually.

The most precise analogy is Vatican II and those occult parishes that continued on doing Latin Mass contrary to the Papal revelation therafer.

[wuapinmon]

I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is about as connected to, and responsible for, the FLDS church's beliefs and actions as the Catholic Church is for the actions and beliefs of the Lutheran Church.

My lovely wife, a multi-generational member from St. George, and a trained sociologist, really gets freaked out by studies, images, and depictions of FLDS and other polygamist sects that are "offshoots" of our church. Her words go something like this:

It's a little spooky to see their temples, their pictures of the prophets being the same as ours up until Wilford Woodruff, how they speak about the Savior, the Priesthood, the Sacrament, the Book of Mormon, and especially how they pray and claim to feel the Spirit just like we're all taught to do.

They're not so different from us, and that's the unnerving point of posts like DDD's. It's perfectly normal for people to lump us all together, because, unlike Luther's complaints against the Catholic Church, theirs was but one, originally, one that we've refuted yet never removed from our canonized scriptures. D&C 132 seems to me as odd to find in the scriptures as the 18th Amendment looks when reading the Constitution.

[TripletDaddy]

I see your argument, although I disagree with it. My point is that the LDS church is not responsible for the beliefs or actions of the FLDS church and it is unfair to the LDS church to mix up the two organizations.

By the way, I know that some polygamist sects popped up long after the manifestoes and their founders were never members of the LDS church. Is the FLDS one of those, or does it date back to dissenting members of the LDS church? I don't know.

You seem to be dissembling with arguments that are not at issue. Where the LDS Church is "responsible" for the FLDS isn't even relevant.

The statement that has been made multiple times revolves around whether there is any relationship between the two.

Let's see the similarities:

Believe in Book of Mormon as word of God: check
Believe in Joseph Smith, the Apostasy and the restoration of the Gospel: check
Polygamy: check
Temples/vicarious work for the dead: check
etc
etc

That the FLDS Church is a splinter does not change the fact that they all stem from the same DNA. Bastard children are still relatives, like it or not.

No relationship, indeed. None whatsoever. We have nothing in common

[LA Ute]

You seem to be dissembling with arguments that are not at issue. Where the LDS Church is "responsible" for the FLDS isn't even relevant.

The statement that has been made multiple times revolves around whether there is any relationship between the two.

Let's see the similarities:

Believe in Book of Mormon as word of God: check
Believe in Joseph Smith, the Apostasy and the restoration of the Gospel: check
Polygamy: check
Temples/vicarious work for the dead: check
etc
etc

That the FLDS Church is a splinter does not change the fact that they all stem from the same DNA. Bastard children are still relatives, like it or not.

No relationship, indeed. None whatsoever. We have nothing in common

Is that straw man dead yet? Better burn him to make sure.

[TripletDaddy]

Is that straw man dead yet? Better burn him to make sure.

The straw man that asserts that the LDS Church is not "responsible" for the FLDS actions? No, it is alive and well on this very board. Kept on life support by the guy that "hopes" the Desnews article is true.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to talk about whether the two groups have any relationship whatsoever....

[wuapinmon]

Is that straw man dead yet? Better burn him to make sure.

I said the same thing and was much nicer, scarecrow.

[LA Ute]

The straw man that asserts that the LDS Church is not "responsible" for the FLDS actions? No, it is alive and well on this very board. Kept on life support by the guy that "hopes" the Desnews article is true.

Now, on the other hand, if you want to talk about whether the two groups have any relationship whatsoever....

No, thanks. I don't have any relationship whatsoever with that straw man either.

[TripletDaddy]

No, thanks. I don't have any relationship whatsoever with that straw man either.

I thought you were from polygamous ancestry?

[LA Ute]

I said the same thing and was much nicer, scarecrow.

Yes, you were nicer. Thanks. But what I said is this:

I think the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is about as connected to, and responsible for, the FLDS church's beliefs and actions as the Catholic Church is for the actions and beliefs of the Lutheran Church.

Both you and Triplet extrapolated arguments from that statement and then struck down those arguments. Triplet struck down the argument that there's no relationship whatsoever. Jovencito, you struck down the argument that the splinter groups are very different from us, and that it's not normal for people to lump us all together. You both did a fine job, too! Too bad I never said either thing.

[TripletDaddy]

Yes, you were nicer. Thanks. But what I said is this:



Both you and Triplet extrapolated arguments from that statement and then struck down those arguments. Triplet struck down the argument that there's no relationship whatsoever. Jovencito, you struck down the argument that the splinter groups are very different from us, and that it's not normal for people to lump us all together. You both did a fine job, too! Too bad I never said either thing.

We both should have stuck to the original topic at hand, which was whether the LDS Church is "responsible" for the actions of the FLDS Church.

[wuapinmon]

Yes, you were nicer. Thanks. But what I said is this:



Both you and Triplet extrapolated arguments from that statement and then struck down those arguments. Triplet struck down the argument that there's no relationship whatsoever. Jovencito, you struck down the argument that the splinter groups are very different from us, and that it's not normal for people to lump us all together. You both did a fine job, too! Too bad I never said either thing.

I think you're splitting hairs, peluquero.