Look at Joseph's WORDS, not the pictures.

[CardiacCoug]

I think both sides of the B of A debates (or maybe all 11 sides, or however many sides there are) could benefit from more of that modesty. I know I can.

If Gee wants to say that today we only have less than 1/3 of the papyri or I think he has said before about 1/8 of the papyri that Joseph had, then that's fine. He's probably right. Or if he wants to say that we only have portions of 2 of the 5 scrolls that Joseph had (something else I have seen) then I don't have a problem with that.

Sure anything is possible -- maybe the stuff that burned up was something totally different (2000 years older, etc). than the stuff that was preserved. But that is obviously not a rational or logical argument -- it's a big leap.

[jay santos]

If Gee wants to say that today we only have less than 1/3 of the papyri or I think he has said before about 1/8 of the papyri that Joseph had, then that's fine. He's probably right. Or if he wants to say that we only have portions of 2 of the 5 scrolls that Joseph had (something else I have seen) then I don't have a problem with that.

Sure anything is possible -- maybe the stuff that burned up was something totally different (2000 years older, etc). than the stuff that was preserved. But that is obviously not a rational or logical argument -- it's a big leap.

Further to your argument, and more central to the original post in the thread, we have the pictures and they're not what Joseph said they were.

[Viking]

Man, the Internet is the worst thing that ever happened to tithing receipts.

I think in twenty years the church will have gone full bore reformed or its ww membership will be 5-10mm, generously

There really isn't a way out on this one, other than the argument I've promulgated that JS was originally right and progressively went rogue. That would support the "reform" path that would include dropping the WoW, dropping the only true and living claim, dropping the PoG, revising the temple, etc.

[Maximus]

Man, the Internet is the worst thing that ever happened to tithing receipts.

I think in twenty years the church will have gone full bore reformed or its ww membership will be 5-10mm, generously

There really isn't a way out on this one, other than the argument I've promulgated that JS was originally right and progressively went rogue. That would support the "reform" path that would include dropping the WoW, dropping the only true and living claim, dropping the PoG, revising the temple, etc.

talk about over reacting.

[LA Ute]

If Gee wants to say that today we only have less than 1/3 of the papyri or I think he has said before about 1/8 of the papyri that Joseph had, then that's fine. He's probably right. Or if he wants to say that we only have portions of 2 of the 5 scrolls that Joseph had (something else I have seen) then I don't have a problem with that.

Sure anything is possible -- maybe the stuff that burned up was something totally different (2000 years older, etc). than the stuff that was preserved. But that is obviously not a rational or logical argument -- it's a big leap.

"Obviously" is a strong word that is often overused. Kind of like "delusional."

[Viking]

talk about over reacting.

In the age of information, it's hard to hide fraud, lies and inconsistencies.

[Moliere]

Is there any chance that the church membership votes to eliminate the BoA from the official canon? Maybe we could start a movement....

[Joe Public]

Is there any chance that the church membership votes to eliminate the BoA from the official canon? Maybe we could start a movement....

That's how it was canonized in the first place, but I don't see it coming to a vote in GC anytime soon.

[ERCougar]

Is there any chance that the church membership votes to eliminate the BoA from the official canon? Maybe we could start a movement....

Is there something in the contents that you object to? Or do you just want to not have deal with how it came about?

[Moliere]

Is there something in the contents that you object to? Or do you just want to not have deal with how it came about?

Mostly the latter. I can deal with the contents as I don't take most of them literally anyway. I'd be more comfortable with the book relegated to the "Joseph's crazy idea" shelf instead of being in every quad. Maybe we could just take out the pictures, but then again I spent many sacrament meetings looking at those things as a teenager. They were much more intereting than a high counselors talk.

[ERCougar]

Mostly the latter. I can deal with the contents as I don't take most of them literally anyway. I'd be more comfortable with the book relegated to the "Joseph's crazy idea" shelf instead of being in every quad. Maybe we could just take out the pictures, but then again I spent many sacrament meetings looking at those things as a teenager. They were much more intereting than a high counselors talk.

I can see what you're saying, but I wonder how this is much different than the BOM. I think most of us already accept that the plates were a bit of a prop to inspire Joseph--even if you think they were literally records from ancient Nephites, he didn't have them in the room much of the time when he was translating. This doesn't seem materially different.

[Viking]

I can see what you're saying, but I wonder how this is much different than the BOM. I think most of us already accept that the plates were a bit of a prop to inspire Joseph--even if you think they were literally records from ancient Nephites, he didn't have them in the room much of the time when he was translating. This doesn't seem materially different.

"translating" seems interchangeable with "storytelling" in this context (no plates present)

[Slim]

I can see what you're saying, but I wonder how this is much different than the BOM. I think most of us already accept that the plates were a bit of a prop to inspire Joseph--even if you think they were literally records from ancient Nephites, he didn't have them in the room much of the time when he was translating. This doesn't seem materially different.

When you say "most of us", do you mean most members of this forum or most members of the church?

[LA Ute]

Mostly the latter. I can deal with the contents as I don't take most of them literally anyway. I'd be more comfortable with the book relegated to the "Joseph's crazy idea" shelf instead of being in every quad. Maybe we could just take out the pictures, but then again I spent many sacrament meetings looking at those things as a teenager. They were much more intereting than a high counselors talk.

OK, I'll drop back in. What is it about "how it came about" that bothers you? I really am interested. From all I can tell we know almost nothing about how the text of the B of A came to be.

[ERCougar]

When you say "most of us", do you mean most members of this forum or most members of the church?

I guess I'd say most members of the forum. I don't mean to challenge the legitimacy of anything--I'm just saying that it's fairly indisputable that Joseph didn't "translate" the record in the way that most would use that word. So to me, it's not a huge step to accept that he translated the BOA similarly--in that regard, the legitimacy of the original document isn't all that important.