In-laws giving "intellectual" book to apostate children

[Jeff Lebowski]

I thought this thread would go in this direction, not debating whether or not to give a book.

It's funny to me that a book by Tad Callister would be described as an intellectual exploration of the issues surrounding the apostacy and restoration. It's the typical Deseret Book fundamental/literal approach.

Jay, my recommendation would be for your wife to tell your MIL that if she wants to give the book as a gift it should come directly from her. If your wife is seen as a non-judgmental, highly approachable person in the family, she should do everything possible to stay that way.

Believe it or not, I have gotten a few of these "gifts" myself over the years and I always resented them, in spite of the good intentions of those providing them. If people have an issue about my behavior or belief system, I would prefer an honest, face-to-face discussion, not a back-door approach. Better yet, I would prefer that they mind their own business and let me approach the church and gospel on my own terms.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I guess I was trying to say don't give them the book because it won't help anything. If they really want to help their kids they just need to love them, regardless of their decisions. No book can do that for them.

Bingo.

[RC Vikings]

Believe it or not, I have gotten a few of these "gifts" myself over the years and I always resented them, in spite of the good intentions of those providing them.

JL you must stir the pot and little in HP group. I'm sorry but I find it a little funny that someone would find someone like yourself, strong active member, in need a book to get or stay in line.

[Eddie]

To be honest, I'm not sure what I would do in this situation.

I don't believe that this book is going to make a difference in the beliefs of the "apostate". But I also understand the desire of a parent to want to see their child return to the beliefs that they hold to be true.

If I were to give the book, I think it would be with a heartfelt conversation - though not the one that the mother is hoping for.

I think I would preface the gift with something like "Mom loves you very much. She truly wants the best for you and wants you to be happy. And she thinks she knows what it is that will make you happy. Because of her beliefs, she is worried about you. She can't help it, unfortunately. She has asked me to give you this book, so I am doing that. You can read it or not, it doesn't matter to me. I just want you to remember that the intent of her heart as the reason she wants you to have this book - she loves you and thinks she is helping."

In my perfect world, "apostates" would not be offended when people motivated by love tried to share religious beliefs with them once in a while. And in my perfect world, religious people would not have the whole of their interactions with "apostates" consist of attempting to bring the "apostate" back to church.

[taekwondave]

When my sister drifted away from the Church for reasons similar to those you descibed, I was rather surprised when my very faithful mother gave my sister Joseph Campbell's The Power of Myth, a fascinating book but not one that would tend to reinvigorate faith in a particularly strict belief system. "Well, it's what she wanted and we shouldn't discourage an honest exploration of ideas, even when they may conflict with our beliefs, right?," Mom asked me somewhat uncertainly.

I'm really impressed with your mother. I think that showed a lot of wisdom. I don't think resistance is the way. If your children are wrong, they will figure that out. So when they step off your beaten path and rather than resisting it you actually foster and encourage it, I think you're doing a world of good. I love the Power of Myth. I have it in my room right now and just read it a couple of months ago. When my mom heard of my beliefs she freaked out and wrote me a five page letter, coupled with a similar one from my step dad, telling me they knew that if I didn't repent and stop reading whatever I was reading that I would apostatize and never come back. I was really offended. I tried not to be. I knew they had good intentions, but it was insulting to my intelligence and my character. I had a very hard time talking to them for a while after that. On the other hand, has she done the scary thing, the thing YOUR mom did, I can't imagine it could have done any harm. When we ignore fear and do the right thing, amazing things happen. But when we write letters to people that express our fears and lack of faith in them in any degree, we alienate them. Kudos to your mom for that move.

[Goatnapper'96]

Wife's sister and brother in law are RM's and BYU grad's who have apostatized for the standard reasons (Mormon history not what we thought, and even the Bible's full of holes).

In-law's are giving them this book http://deseretbook.com/Inevitable-Ap...ster/i/4954463. Because they are sure it will speak to them, intellectually.

Better yet, the parents know the kids will be offended if they give the book, so they want my wife to do it. She's stuck in the middle.

How do you think this will turn out?

One thing I don't predict: the scholarly approach Tad Callister takes will address all the concerns of the naughty little apostate children, and they will quickly return back to the church.

One thing that never ceases to amaze me is the gulf between folks of faith and folks without faith. The LDS Church's claim to monopoly on truth and all the various mythological stories deeply embedded into the faith and culture were able to go a long way with individuals more predisposed to reason than to faith. In the day of the internet that leverage with those folks is dissipating faster than a woodie in front of Margaret Thatcher on a cold night. However, well meaning parents/family will keep trying to present ideas that the believer thinks is intellectually stimulating when it is essentially only stimulating their faith. The good parents are attemtping to help somebody with something in a language that the object of their ill-advised help will not understand.

I think it was The Beatles who coined the phrase: "girl don't go away mad, just go away" or something like that!

[cowboy]

Wife's sister and brother in law are RM's and BYU grad's who have apostatized for the standard reasons (Mormon history not what we thought, and even the Bible's full of holes).

In-law's are giving them this book http://deseretbook.com/Inevitable-Ap...ster/i/4954463. Because they are sure it will speak to them, intellectually.

Better yet, the parents know the kids will be offended if they give the book, so they want my wife to do it. She's stuck in the middle.

How do you think this will turn out?

One thing I don't predict: the scholarly approach Tad Callister takes will address all the concerns of the naughty little apostate children, and they will quickly return back to the church.

I agree with your prediction, but without more background, it's hard to say how ugly things will get. If the situation is already contentious, then there is probably no way things end well. If parents are simply showing concern and trying to help, then hopefully the kids will understand and appreciate the offer regardless of whether they read the book.

For all the complaining that disaffected members do about being mistreated when they leave (much of their complaints may justified, btw), they sometimes seem to show very little compassion to their family when they exit. While there are probably a lot of reasons that family members want their kin to stay in the church, a significant reason is genuine love and concern. When parents watch their kids fall away it often hurts because the parents are convinced that their kids are making a decision that will make them less happy in the long run. Then, when parents try to influence the decision, the departing parties get defensive and offended, sometimes lashing out and making their parents hurt even more.

I love my kids, and I think that active membership in the LDS Church is the best way to find lasting happiness. I would be devastated if any of them left the church, and I would naturally try to resolve any concerns they would express. Hopefully that never happens, but if it does I hope that both sides will be able to understand each other, and not take offense at ill-conceived attempts to show love and concern.

[old_gregg]

the comparison between showing those who believe something like the godmakers and recommending the callister book is inaccurate, methinks. one must consider motivations for doing these two separate things. on one hand, the parents are exhibiting sincere, thoughtful care about the well-being of their children by doing what they think is helpful (whether it would sway their opinion or not is irrelevant). i really hope that they wouldn't do so for any reason other than what they perceive to be their kids' welfare (though it is a possibility). their desire to avoid confrontation seems like good evidence of the lengths they are willing to go to to not step on toes (it could also be that they are chickenshits, i dunno).

on the other hand, the only motivation of an atheist to dissuade one from faith is to prove their logical/moral superiority. by definition, there is no benefit to others (in the atheist's mind) for them to "convert" believers, unless they're making the argument that religion in a general sense is a net disadvantage to society. that kind of motivation seems selfish to me, whereas the caring parent has some degree of genuineness involved.

[scottie]

on the other hand, the only motivation of an atheist to dissuade one from faith is to prove their logical/moral superiority. by definition, there is no benefit to others (in the atheist's mind) for them to "convert" believers, unless they're making the argument that religion in a general sense is a net disadvantage to society. that kind of motivation seems selfish to me, whereas the caring parent has some degree of genuineness involved.

That's simply not true in many cases.

[old_gregg]

:bsflag:

so what is the motivation? i'm definitely willing to admit that i'm wrong. i just don't see a good argument for atheistic proselytizing. is it a desire to improve the general quality of the potential convert's life?

[scottie]

so what is the motivation? i'm definitely willing to admit that i'm wrong. i just don't see a good argument for atheistic proselytizing. is it a desire to improve the general quality of the potential convert's life?

Dang, you beat me before I edited out the BS flag...

Anyway, there's probably a million different motivations.

[wuapinmon]

It seems like this is the kind of book one should buy for oneself.

[jay santos]

I agree with your prediction, but without more background, it's hard to say how ugly things will get. If the situation is already contentious, then there is probably no way things end well. If parents are simply showing concern and trying to help, then hopefully the kids will understand and appreciate the offer regardless of whether they read the book.

For all the complaining that disaffected members do about being mistreated when they leave (much of their complaints may justified, btw), they sometimes seem to show very little compassion to their family when they exit. While there are probably a lot of reasons that family members want their kin to stay in the church, a significant reason is genuine love and concern. When parents watch their kids fall away it often hurts because the parents are convinced that their kids are making a decision that will make them less happy in the long run. Then, when parents try to influence the decision, the departing parties get defensive and offended, sometimes lashing out and making their parents hurt even more.

I love my kids, and I think that active membership in the LDS Church is the best way to find lasting happiness. I would be devastated if any of them left the church, and I would naturally try to resolve any concerns they would express. Hopefully that never happens, but if it does I hope that both sides will be able to understand each other, and not take offense at ill-conceived attempts to show love and concern.

There's not a lot of contention. The parents are actually being pretty good about it. They're doing their best. The kids aren't acting offended. And they're not getting in anyone's face about it. It took them a long time to come out. They're just trying to avoid getting hassled. A couple of the siblings have sent long emails and that's about it. The main point of entertainment for me in this was that they thought this book would have a significant impact on them, since it was an "intellectual" book.

[Jacob]

In my perfect world, "apostates" would not be offended when people motivated by love tried to share religious beliefs with them once in a while. And in my perfect world, religious people would not have the whole of their interactions with "apostates" consist of attempting to bring the "apostate" back to church.

My real world is like your perfect world, I think. Seems like we have several bitter people here. Giving a book intended to increase faith is not similar to a book inrending to destroy it. The giving may be annoying but not usually offensive. I wouldnt recommend the book unless I personally enjoyed it. I wouldnt gift it if I believed it would offend.

[Viking]

Wife's sister and brother in law are RM's and BYU grad's who have apostatized for the standard reasons (Mormon history not what we thought, and even the Bible's full of holes).

In-law's are giving them this book http://deseretbook.com/Inevitable-Ap...ster/i/4954463. Because they are sure it will speak to them, intellectually.

Better yet, the parents know the kids will be offended if they give the book, so they want my wife to do it. She's stuck in the middle.

How do you think this will turn out?

One thing I don't predict: the scholarly approach Tad Callister takes will address all the concerns of the naughty little apostate children, and they will quickly return back to the church.

My mom does this nonsense all the time.

Then she wonders why no one wants to talk w her amongst her unbelievingly kids.

It's so completely offensive if not narcissistic of the believer to feel compelled to send Deseret Book-grade propaganda to try to convince one who already gone through the deeply emotional, very introspective and personal decision to leave a faith that believes such an action is tantamount to eternal suicide and that somehow they are entirely wrong, willing to risk all familial and personal relationships in the process as is the case w many "apostates" (yours truly included--including losing my first marriage over the issue).

JS, the answer is simple: tell your inlaws to deal w it themselves