Which BOM origination theory do you believe? (15th attempt)

[jay santos]

For those that think Joseph acted alone, what do you think of Oliver bearing witness of three angelic visitations (three witnesses, J the B, and P J and J)? And Sidney Rigdon being involved with Joseph in the Sec 76 Kirtland temple revelation, testifying of seeing Christ? Doesn't this suggest a conspiracy?

[SeattleUte]

For those that think Joseph acted alone, what do you think of Oliver bearing witness of three angelic visitations (three witnesses, J the B, and P J and J)? And Sidney Rigdon being involved with Joseph in the Sec 76 Kirtland temple revelation, testifying of seeing Christ? Doesn't this suggest a conspiracy?

No one even knows if Oliver really said that stuff. Is he on tape? Did Rigdon tell you about the sec 76 revelation?

[jay santos]

No one even knows if Oliver really said that stuff. Is he on tape? Did Rigdon tell you about the sec 76 revelation?

Well hell how do we even know we landed on the moon, if you want to be skeptical about every piece of information. You have to start somewhere.

[SeattleUte]

Well hell how do we even know we landed on the moon, if you want to be skeptical about every piece of information. You have to start somewhere.

We have pictures?

All I'm saying is you are starting with some premises here. And if you probe you'll see even your premises are suspect to put it generously.

If you look back at your life you will see that many things were told you as a child that you accepted without question because you loved and depended on the people who told you these things. An easy example is the purported "witnesses'" estimony. For starters, there are no signed statements and probably never were any (note the way they are formatted is intended to make you think there were actual signed statements). Hence, there's no reason to give those pages at the front of the book of Mormon any credence at all. In fact, there's good reason to disbelieve them based on common sense and experience. It's not necessary to speculate about conspiracy and motives and such. A court of law or a scientist would reject them. You believe what you believe rather than Muhammad's story because of where and when you were born and who raised you.

[SeattleUte]

By the way the poll sucks because none of the answers ring true. It's just an instinct but I bet that's why many people aren't voting. You can't sum up such a complex human drama this way.

[jay santos]

We have pictures?

All I'm saying is you are starting with some premises here. And if you probe you'll see even your premises are suspect to put it generously.

If you look back at your life you will see that many things were told you as a child that you accepted without question because you loved and depended on the people who told you these things. An easy example is the purported "witnesses'" estimony. For starters, there are no signed statements and probably never were any (note the way they are formatted is intended to make you think there were actual signed statements). Hence, there's no reason to give those pages at the front of the book of Mormon any credence at all. In fact, there's good reason to disbelieve them based on common sense and experience. It's not necessary to speculate about conspiracy and motives and such. A court of law or a scientist would reject them. You believe what you believe rather than Muhammad's story because of where and when you were born and who raised you.

I think breaking down the testimonies of the three and eight witnesses is a logical thing to do. There is a lot of information to take in, just on that subject. For example, many of the witnesses talk in terms of "spiritually witnessing" vs physically witnessing. That's an interesting discussion for me. Maybe not for you, that's fine. But I don't agree with dismissing all of the statements and facts and theories because it happened a long time ago and it's all suspect.

[SeattleUte]

I think breaking down the testimonies of the three and eight witnesses is a logical thing to do. There is a lot of information to take in, just on that subject. For example, many of the witnesses talk in terms of "spiritually witnessing" vs physically witnessing. That's an interesting discussion for me. Maybe not for you, that's fine. But I don't agree with dismissing all of the statements and facts and theories because it happened a long time ago and it's all suspect.

I'm only dismissing them in telling you you're going about it the wrong way, in my opinion and experience. If these issues are meaningful to you I don't think you'll ever get any satisfaction.

[jay santos]

By the way the poll sucks because none of the answers ring true. It's just an instinct but I bet that's why many people aren't voting. You can't sum up such a complex human drama this way.

Give me an alternate theory that I didn't cover. You can't say truth doesn't exist. It does. We have a book called the Book of Mormon. It was created somehow.

[SeattleUte]

Give me an alternate theory that I didn't cover. You can't say truth doesn't exist. It does. We have a book called the Book of Mormon. It was created somehow.

The truth as you expect to find it is not accessible to you and for all you know truth has infinate forms.

[jay santos]

I'm only dismissing them in telling you you're going about it the wrong way, in my opinion and experience. If these issues are meaningful to you I don't think you'll ever get any satisfaction.

I don't get satisfaction in a lot of areas in my life. I'll survive. The Book of Mormon's very important to me. Always will be. I'd like to know with more certainty what it's origination is.

[jay santos]

The six people that voted fictional but inspired by God, I'm calling you out. Please defend your stance.

I love relativity in a lot of areas, and I've tried really hard to understand this angle to see if i could go with it, but I just can't.

Is it as weak as what I wrote earlier "God sees various humans throughout history attempting to create a world religion and he decides to intervene a little to at least steer them in a positive direction"?

Or do you think God chose this as a method to bring forth the restoration of his true church and true priesthood power?

[CardiacCoug]

Give me an alternate theory that I didn't cover. You can't say truth doesn't exist. It does. We have a book called the Book of Mormon. It was created somehow.

I guess my concise, three (long) sentence version would be.

Joseph wrote it himself, acting alone, and he probably used a few notes to help him keep things straight. He was dictating from behind a screen so nobody knew if he had a Bible and/or notes with him and the mythology of him dictating for long periods of time with no notes is probably somewhat exaggerated. But perhaps not -- Joseph was a religious genius and the human mind is an amazing thing, so he could have probably produced it just from his mind in much the way described by Oliver and Emma.

[LA Ute]

I guess my concise, three (long) sentence version would be.

Joseph wrote it and he probably used a few notes to help him keep things straight. He was dictating from behind a screen so nobody knew if he had a Bible and/or notes with him and the mythology of him dictating for long periods of time with no notes is probably somewhat exaggerated. But perhaps not -- Joseph was a religious genius and the human mind is an amazing thing, so he could have probably produced it just from his mind in much the way described by Oliver and Emma.

If you are right, doesn't that make him a fraud and liar?

[All-American]

If you are right, doesn't that make him a fraud and liar?

Only if he didn't think that God was helping him.

[All-American]

For starters, there are no signed statements and probably never were any (note the way they are formatted is intended to make you think there were actual signed statements). Hence, there's no reason to give those pages at the front of the book of Mormon any credence at all. In fact, there's good reason to disbelieve them based on common sense and experience.

You've brought this up before. Tell me truly, though. If it did turn out that there was a signed statement, would that change how you felt?