Which BOM origination theory do you believe? (15th attempt)

[jay santos]

What are the best resources for researching the various theories?

I don't know. I'm not an expert. Authors like Bushman, Givens, Quinn, Vogel, Brodie. Sunstone, Dailogue, BYU Studies, FARMS. By common consent blogs. Discussion at Mormon Apologetics discussion board.

[wuapinmon]

Here's something else I find fascinating. The faithful are far outnumbering the faithless in this poll. In other polls, it seems the faithless win out or the numbers are split. I think SU and his types are scared to vote in this poll.

It's easy to be critical of BOM origination but much harder to provide a critical, plausible, detailed theory that satisfies all the issues.

This is kind of a dickish post in a thread that hasn't had much dickishness yet.

[jay santos]

Or a humorous way to engage SU, but you can call it dickish.

[BigFatMeanie]

So Cowdery's hand-writing first appears not at the beginning of the original manuscript, but just after the lost 116 pages?

Good question. I'm not sure how the lost 116 fits into the picture.

[SeattleUte]

Here's something else I find fascinating. The faithful are far outnumbering the faithless in this poll. In other polls, it seems the faithless win out or the numbers are split. I think SU and his types are scared to vote in this poll.

It's easy to be critical of BOM origination but much harder to provide a critical, plausible, detailed theory that satisfies all the issues.

I think we are beyond bored with this subject. It's a complicated story and we have a stick figure version of it regardless of your theory.

This much I know. JS was not the first person to generate scripture and tell stories about visions. The origins are always murkey, the chain of custody is non-existent, and the story is always revised and ultimately finalized a number if not many years about the alleged events. It has happened a number of times before and since.

These occult activities have sometimes led to positive things happening for millions of human beings. It's a fair claim to make that JS's are in this category.

But as Sterling McMurrin said, most thoughtful people grow up and realize the world does not work the way JS said it did, or, perhaps more precisely, the official LDS story on JS says it does. Once you realize that truth or falsity of the details ceases to be an obsession.

[mUUser]

I think he mean's this approach.

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...&postcount=132

Since I'm likely smarter and more successful than you, I figure my faith is off the charts! Sweet!

[SportUTE]

This will sound prideful. It probably is. I don't care.

I think it takes MORE faith to stay active when you have a professional degree. I have so much more knowledge about things bouncing around my head than most people do. I've read 20,000+ (and counting) pages about religion, including the nether recesses of monotheism. On paper, and with my intellect, as I analyze everything, the LDS Church makes no sense. Christianity makes no sense. That God created flawed people that he will then allow to be tempted and punish them for failing to live up to to a perfection they can never attain due to their inherent humanness that he gave them, and then he'll have to kill one of his own sons who does live up to his standards to redeem everyone who doesn't, sounds FARKING nuts.

Amen Brotha

I cringe when I hear the "I know the church is true and I've never doubted it a second..." line in a testimony meeting or comment in discussion. To me it's just people declaring they are in the grips of confirmation bias. The more we learn about anything, the more contradictory it will be.

I don't know why it is so, but I'm starting to really understand that Faith truly is the first principle of the gospel. We will never have full assurance of anything in this life and I'm pretty confident that is how it was intended by God. Why? I have no idea but there's something about summoning courage to perform our labors despite our doubts. I think God really wanted us to get familiar with that conflict and how to endure to the end.

[Jacob]

Good question. I'm not sure how the lost 116 fits into the picture.

I was wrong. The story goes that 1 Nephi was translated at the end, after the "large plates" were translated. So, after losing the 116, Joseph resumed translation, this time with Cowdery, in Mosiah and went to the end. Then returned to the "small plates of Nephi" and finnished up. So, unless the manuscript is out of chronological order (but in the order the book was printed), Cowdery's handwriting would have first appeared in Mosiah. First, chronologically, that is.

[Jacob]

I think it takes MORE faith to stay active when you have a professional degree. I have so much more knowledge...

I suppose that depends on how one defines faith. In this case, you seem to be defining it as belief in spite of serious doubts. Or perhaps as the suppression of doubt. I wouldn't define it that way and I wouldn't agree that it takes more faith to stay active for smart people or educated people, or rich people, or--and this is the one I struggle with--really handsome people.

[BlueHair]

I remember being taught there was no way Jospeph could have written the Book of Mormon because of his education level. People portray him to be some unintelligent farm hand. Personally, I think he was a very intelligent con-man that wrote a book that could fool a lot of people with unprovable claims. Either way, I am somewhat embarrassed to think I spent two years trying to convince people it was the most correct book on earth.

[Moliere]

I remember being taught there was no way Jospeph could have written the Book of Mormon because of his education level. People portray him to be some unintelligent farm hand. Personally, I think he was a very intelligent con-man that wrote a book that could fool a lot of people with unprovable claims. Either way, I am somewhat embarrassed to think I spent two years trying to convince people it was the most correct book on earth.

There is plenty of evidence that at the time of the translation he was not capable of writing something even close to the BoM. Either someone else wrote it and gave it to him or he was inspired (or I guess he could have played dumb for the first 20 or so years of his life and then surprised everyone).

I struggle voting in this poll. My heart says the first option and my mind says the second. I'm currently undecided, but faithful.

[creekster]

I remember being taught there was no way Jospeph could have written the Book of Mormon because of his education level. People portray him to be some unintelligent farm hand. Personally, I think he was a very intelligent con-man that wrote a book that could fool a lot of people with unprovable claims. Either way, I am somewhat embarrassed to think I spent two years trying to convince people it was the most correct book on earth.

Having read his journals (at least those entries in his own hand) it is hard to imagine him pulling it off. But that is not very compelling evidence, I realize.

[jay santos]

I remember being taught there was no way Jospeph could have written the Book of Mormon because of his education level. People portray him to be some unintelligent farm hand. Personally, I think he was a very intelligent con-man that wrote a book that could fool a lot of people with unprovable claims. Either way, I am somewhat embarrassed to think I spent two years trying to convince people it was the most correct book on earth.

It seems like when you read Joseph's early writings, they were horribly bad in terms of grammar and spelling and such. Spelling can be fixed, but grammar not so much. Unless Oliver completely reworked Joseph's words into proper sentences while he transcribed them.

I should know this, but do we have access to the most original manuscript? I know it was a topic of study for Royal Skousen recently. I know a lot of the grammar and spelling was corrected through different versions, but it's hard to imagine Joseph writing a book that wouldn't have to be completely worked over to get to its current state.

[BlueHair]

He probably had a lot of help. There's really no way to know for sure. For me, it doesn't seem inspired. Admittedly, I'm turned off by some of the verbiage. "And it came to pass" appearing over and over and over again makes me chuckle. It sounds like someone trying too hard to make it sound like scripture. For all I know, he stole the book or maybe it happened like he said. I'll probably never know for sure, but I'm willing to bet my salvation that it's a work of fiction.

[SeattleUte]

It seems like when you read Joseph's early writings, they were horribly bad in terms of grammar and spelling and such. Spelling can be fixed, but grammar not so much. Unless Oliver completely reworked Joseph's words into proper sentences while he transcribed them.

I should know this, but do we have access to the most original manuscript? I know it was a topic of study for Royal Skousen recently. I know a lot of the grammar and spelling was corrected through different versions, but it's hard to imagine Joseph writing a book that wouldn't have to be completely worked over to get to its current state.

What do you mean? The one they took to the printer? How would anybody know if there was an earlier of anything. Most any book that goes to a priner has been worked over, proofed, etc.

Here's the truth about what we know. ZILCH. If you apply rules of evidence etc. it is totally inconclusive. Even Brodie's facts are fragmented hearsay long after the fact.

Where are the original eyewitnesses statements about seeing angels, golden plates, etc.? Who knows if they really ever existed. Probably not. Even those suppoed late life testimonials by apostates are of questionable content and origin, to say nothing of the fact that even such apostates had motive to stand by their stories.

What happens is people you love and depend on tell you stuff early in life and you just accept it as verity.

One thing you learn as a lawyer is that even a slip and fall accident can get very complicated very quickly. This is isn't a simple story, and, frankly, there is no "truth" per se to be had about it. So stop looking for truth. You won't find it.