New revised version of the BOM.

[wuapinmon]

I see this "Reformed Egyptian" as a type of short hand that evolved among the record keepers. Giving how much labor each inscription required, an ability to make it more concise was likely very desirable.

If you don't answer my Ellis Island question soon, you will be dead to me.

[jay santos]

Pelagius. Thanks for getting to it before I could get back. Yes, Nibley was what I was primarily referring to. In hindsight, I probably shouldn't have made it as conclusive as I did. But it is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. Nephi would be describing his qualifications and under what conditions he became learned. "I was able to receive the best education because my parents could afford it."



I see this "Reformed Egyptian" as a type of short hand that evolved among the record keepers. Giving how much labor each inscription required, an ability to make it more concise was likely very desirable.

Taking this logic to its end is what's most troubling to me about the Reformed Egyptian issue. The BOM prophets jumped through hoops to preserve this writing system, painfully so at time see Moroni 12. Then it gets completely scrapped by Joseph, who doesn't even use the plates in the translation process.

[Moliere]

Taking this logic to its end is what's most troubling to me about the Reformed Egyptian issue. The BOM prophets jumped through hoops to preserve this writing system, painfully so at time see Moroni 12. Then it gets completely scrapped by Joseph, who doesn't even use the plates in the translation process.

Having the plates was an important part of the translation process. Joseph never translated the BoM prior to receiving the plates and didn't add to the BoM after giving back the plates. Sure he made a number of edits to the manuscript and text after giving back the plates, but the body of work came to be during the time that he had control over the plates.

It could be that this writing system was the only feasible way to fit the record onto plates that could be carried by one person. It sounds like a condensed writing style and thus the reason it was painfully preserved.

Of course, to buy my explanation you'd need to have a "magical worldview" but that's what Joseph had.

[jay santos]

Having the plates was an important part of the translation process. Joseph never translated the BoM prior to receiving the plates and didn't add to the BoM after giving back the plates. Sure he made a number of edits to the manuscript and text after giving back the plates, but the body of work came to be during the time that he had control over the plates.

It could be that this writing system was the only feasible way to fit the record onto plates that could be carried by one person. It sounds like a condensed writing style and thus the reason it was painfully preserved.

Of course, to buy my explanation you'd need to have a "magical worldview" but that's what Joseph had.

But a large part (majority?) of the BOM was translated while the gold plates were hidden away in the woods. The gold plates and the reformed Egyptian etched on them were not necessary for the translation.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Taking this logic to its end is what's most troubling to me about the Reformed Egyptian issue. The BOM prophets jumped through hoops to preserve this writing system, painfully so at time see Moroni 12. Then it gets completely scrapped by Joseph, who doesn't even use the plates in the translation process.

There is no Moroni 12.

I am not following you. Does it say somewhere that it was critical for RE language to be preserved in order for JS to be able to translate? Why would this be so? Unless it was English, he wouldn't understand it.

And we have discussed this ad nauseum, but why would he need to be holding or looking at the plates when he doesn't know the language? What difference would it make, other than symbolic?

[Dwight Schr-ute]

But a large part (majority?) of the BOM was translated while the gold plates were hidden away in the woods. The gold plates and the reformed Egyptian etched on them were not necessary for the translation.

I'm not too familiar with what percentage of the translation used the actual plates but I would argue that having the tangible evidence right in front of Joseph Smith was essential in the beginning and then became less vital as his faith and experience grew.

But what do I know? I hadn't heard that he had traslated any part of it without using the plates. But it's pretty common knowledge that he didn't always use the U&T, so this isn't hard to imagine.

[jay santos]

There is no Moroni 12.

I am not following you. Does it say somewhere that it was critical for RE language to be preserved in order for JS to be able to translate? Why would this be so? Unless it was English, he wouldn't understand it.

And we have discussed this ad nauseum, but why would he need to be holding or looking at the plates when he doesn't know the language? What difference would it make, other than symbolic?

Duh sorry ether 12. Moroni mentions the difficulty in writing. Just seems strange God required this whole reformed egyptian thing when it obviously was a major headache for at least one bom author, when the whole thing basically ends up as a glorified prop.

[Dwight Schr-ute]

Just seems strange God required this whole reformed egyptian thing when it obviously was a major headache for at least one bom author, when the whole thing basically ends up as a glorified prop.

Anyone want to discuss how much money and effort that the church invests in "props" today?

[jay santos]

Anyone want to discuss how much money and effort that the church invests in "props" today?

I'm not addressing that issue. The issue here is the seeming lack of need for the reformed egyptian requirement.

[Portland Ute]

I'm not too familiar with what percentage of the translation used the actual plates but I would argue that having the tangible evidence right in front of Joseph Smith was essential in the beginning and then became less vital as his faith and experience grew.

But what do I know? I hadn't heard that he had traslated any part of it without using the plates. But it's pretty common knowledge that he didn't always use the U&T, so this isn't hard to imagine.

pssst.... He peered into a hat with a peep stone to translate, too!

(Just wanted to get that out there since the methods of translating are being discussed and some are not as familiar with the process.)

[Moliere]

But a large part (majority?) of the BOM was translated while the gold plates were hidden away in the woods. The gold plates and the reformed Egyptian etched on them were not necessary for the translation.

Not a large part or a majority. In fact, we don't know how much but it seems the plates were typically in the same room and covered with a linen cloth or uncovered with a blanket separating the scribe and Joseph. Go back and read this section in RSR, it's pretty evident that little was translated with the plates in the woods.