Taekwondave (The Biathanatos Question)

[wuapinmon]

Wait, you had me until that last part. I see your point that allowing someone to kill you doesn't necessarily make you a suicide, but I don't think this parallel works. But yeah, suicide means you kill yourself, not that you let someone kill you. I rescind my former statement. It wasn't well thought out.

Ahem. No, he wasn't a suicide. Will you tell me NOW, wua?

I'm still waiting for you to articulate something cogent that seems to know what it is you think you understand.

[taekwondave]

The point I was trying to make is that killing is taking a life. Stealing is taking property. Allowing someone to take my life doesn't make me a killer, nor does allowing someone to steal from me make me a thief. I'm guessing the reason people think suicide is a sin is because they're taking a life. Not perfect, but I think it works.

Yeah. It does work.

[taekwondave]

I'm still waiting for you to articulate something cogent that seems to know what it is you think you understand.

Wait. Did you read that sentence of yours carefully before posting it? Don't you mean, "I'm still waiting for you to articulate something cogent that seems to INDICATE what it is you think you understand?"

Because if THAT is what you meant to say...I thought I made it clear that I do not understand.

Your original question regarding Christ as a suicide: I first took the stance that I could not answer it because of my own accepted premises. You called that "weak." I then attempted to answer it using another set of premises that I don't agree with but think are pretty commonly accepted and blue hair girl set me straight, showing me pretty clearly that Jesus wouldn't count as a suicide. I am now saying Jesus did NOT commit suicide and thus did NOT commit sin in that regard, per your original question/puzzle/thingy.

But you have seemed to suggest that there is something about what you posted that I have not seen and I have asked you to reveal what that is, since, not seeing it and not knowing at all what you even MIGHT be talking about, I have no hope that I will actually find it (did you like the Little Mermaid clip btw? Youtube rocks my world) so I resorted to begging you to tell me so that I wouldn't wonder for the next 24 hours or so if there really WAS something there I missed or if you were just mind f***ing me.

Cogent enough?

[wuapinmon]

Wait. Did you read that sentence of yours carefully before posting it? Don't you mean, "I'm still waiting for you to articulate something cogent that seems to INDICATE what it is you think you understand?"

Because if THAT is what you meant to say...I thought I made it clear that I do not understand.

Your original question regarding Christ as a suicide: I first took the stance that I could not answer it because of my own accepted premises. You called that "weak." I then attempted to answer it using another set of premises that I don't agree with but think are pretty commonly accepted and blue hair girl set me straight, showing me pretty clearly that Jesus wouldn't count as a suicide. I am now saying Jesus did NOT commit suicide and thus did NOT commit sin in that regard, per your original question/puzzle/thingy.

But you have seemed to suggest that there is something about what you posted that I have not seen and I have asked you to reveal what that is, since, not seeing it and not knowing at all what you even MIGHT be talking about, I have no hope that I will actually find it (did you like the Little Mermaid clip btw? Youtube rocks my world) so I resorted to begging you to tell me so that I wouldn't wonder for the next 24 hours or so if there really WAS something there I missed or if you were just mind f***ing me.

Cogent enough?

You're getting warmer. But, if you look closely at the original post, I gave you two links. And, I meant "know" in the pure sense of the word.

[taekwondave]

You like to push people's buttons with crazy statements, well, opine on this one:

If suicide is a sin,
and Jesus was both mortal and God
and Jesus could have used his divine powers to extend his life
but Jesus let men kill him
then did Jesus chose to die?
and did he thereby commit suicide?
and did he thereby sin?


With a debt to my master, Borges, and to John Donne.

Okay, I followed the link and read. Good stuff. But he seemed to say that Christ DIDN'T let men kill him. I recall the quote, "I lay down my own life. No man taketh it from me..." which suggests that Christ "gave up the ghost" voluntarily. Is that what you're getting at? That Christ DID commit suicide because nobody could be said to have killed him?

You ARE mind f***ing me, aren't you.

[Devildog]

[Eddie]

So...along these same lines...

If murder is sin - to the degree that we are taught that there is only one thing worse you can even possibly do - how can God still be God when he told Nephi to kill Laban and even led him by the spirit and put him in a position to be able to do so - thereby becoming Himself an accessory to murder?

[DapperDan]

You like to push people's buttons with crazy statements, well, opine on this one:

If suicide is a sin,
and Jesus was both mortal and God
and Jesus could have used his divine powers to extend his life
but Jesus let men kill him
then did Jesus chose to die?
and did he thereby commit suicide?
and did he thereby sin?


With a debt to my master, Borges, and to John Donne.

When I was in my mid teens this occurred to me. I brought it up in Sunday School.

Yeah, that didn't go over very well.

[Eddie]

When I was in my mid teens this occurred to me. I brought it up in Sunday School.

Yeah, that didn't go over very well.

Maybe I'm a bit simple minded, but this question isn't really that difficult to me.

My ideas come from the BOM when Jacob is preaching at the temple about polygamy. Basically he says that there are times when God orders it, and it's OK. And there are times when he doesn't, and it is an abomination.

So - in my simple mind the definition of sin is not necessarily related to a specific act. Sin is simply doing something contrary to God's will or command.

Generally speaking, murder is sin. Except when God tells you to do it - like the case of Nephi and Laban. Or during time of war - which God has also said it is OK to defend yourself, your family, your freedoms.

If you believe that killing yourself, suicide, is sin like unto murder - then you also have to believe that it is OK if it is God's will. And I seem to recall Christ making a comment along the lines of "Thy will be done."



Going a whole 'nother direction here (and if someone is contemplating suicide, please don't take this as permission to follow through with it) I don't necessarily think suicide is sin - or perhaps better said - I can't imagine someone who takes there own life is healthy emotionally or mentally to the point that they can be held completely accountable for their actions.

I don't know if at the final judgement God will allow folks to use temporary insanity as a defense for their actions - but I don't accept "suicide is murder" and the belief that those who commit suicide will receive the same consequences as a murderer as a blanket statement.

[RC Vikings]

You like to push people's buttons with crazy statements, well, opine on this one:

If suicide is a sin,
and Jesus was both mortal and God
and Jesus could have used his divine powers to extend his life
but Jesus let men kill him
then did Jesus chose to die?
and did he thereby commit suicide?
and did he thereby sin?


With a debt to my master, Borges, and to John Donne.

Suicide by Roman authorities.

[Sullyute]

My ideas come from the BOM when Jacob is preaching at the temple about polygamy. Basically he says that there are times when God orders it, and it's OK. And there are times when he doesn't, and it is an abomination.

So - in my simple mind the definition of sin is not necessarily related to a specific act. Sin is simply doing something contrary to God's will or command.

In the same vain, Joseph sending men on missions so that he could sleep with their wives was not a sin because it was God's will. So if God can change the rules based on His will, how is He any less fickle than the gods of Roman and Greek mythology? So which laws are eternal and which laws are just the will of God?

(Please don't give me that God's name is eternal so they are the same)

Edit: This question is directed to all, not just Eddie.

[Eddie]

In the same vain, Joseph sending men on missions so that he could sleep with their wives was not a sin because it was God's will. So if God can change the rules based on His will, how is He any less fickle than the gods of Roman and Greek mythology? So which laws are eternal and which laws are just the will of God?

(Please don't give me that God's name is eternal so they are the same)

Edit: This question is directed to all, not just Eddie.

That's a great question.

I guess the answer (from my perspective) is that there are very few laws which don't have an exception depending on the circumstances.

The challenge is determining what is God's will for you. And that takes some effort.

I like to think that God has fewer exceptions than those of Roman and Greek mythology, which makes Him somewhat less fickle. But fickle at times none the less.

And, or course, there is always the "He is God and sees/knows infinately more than your or I. We have to trust Him. It won't always make sense to us." I get the impression you wouldn't be a fan of that position...

[creekster]

If you have the power to resurrect yourself what does death even mean to you? It certainly isn't suicide in the same sense that it is for us. indeed the very reason suicide may be a sin is. ecause it is an unauthorized assumption of god's prerogative over life and death.

[NorthwestUteFan]

In the same vain, Joseph sending men on missions so that he could sleep with their wives was not a sin because it was God's will. So if God can change the rules based on His will, how is He any less fickle than the gods of Roman and Greek mythology? So which laws are eternal and which laws are just the will of God.

(Please don't give me that God's name is eternal so they are the same)

It was a sin when David sent Bathsheba's husband to the front lines so I am unsure why that wouldn't be a sin in modern days, unless the latter event was based more on one man's personal desires than God's will.

How can we know the difference between revelation inspired of God and a "revelation" inspired by lust?

[taekwondave]

So...along these same lines...

If murder is sin - to the degree that we are taught that there is only one thing worse you can even possibly do - how can God still be God when he told Nephi to kill Laban and even led him by the spirit and put him in a position to be able to do so - thereby becoming Himself an accessory to murder?

Oh, that's an easy one. Nephi made it up. Ding, ding!