Taekwondave (The Biathanatos Question)

[wuapinmon]

You like to push people's buttons with crazy statements, well, opine on this one:

If suicide is a sin,
and Jesus was both mortal and God
and Jesus could have used his divine powers to extend his life
but Jesus let men kill him
then did Jesus chose to die?
and did he thereby commit suicide?
and did he thereby sin?


With a debt to my master, Borges, and to John Donne.

[taekwondave]

You like to push people's buttons with crazy statements, well, opine on this one:

If suicide is a sin,
and Jesus was both mortal and God
and Jesus could have used his divine powers to extend his life
but Jesus let men kill him
then did Jesus chose to die?
and did he thereby commit suicide?
and did he thereby sin?


With a debt to my master, Borges, and to John Donne.

Sure.

I don't really believe in sin. I think that was something Jesus was trying to get us all to see. I don't think he was a "god" either. Well, no more than you or I. I think we are all children of "God" and therefore "God" or "gods." I reject the idea of eternal progression. That sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. If eternity is circular, at what point on it can you say you've progressed? Meh.

I like your question, but given my currently accepted premises, it's impossible for me to really answer.

Oh, and yes, I am still an active member of the LDS church (I know, right???)

[wuapinmon]

Sure.

I don't really believe in sin. I think that was something Jesus was trying to get us all to see. I don't think he was a "god" either. Well, no more than you or I. I think we are all children of "God" and therefore "God" or "gods." I reject the idea of eternal progression. That sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. If eternity is circular, at what point on it can you say you've progressed? Meh.

I like your question, but given my currently accepted premises, it's impossible for me to really answer.

Oh, and yes, I am still an active member of the LDS church (I know, right???)

weak

[NorthwestUteFan]

Sure.

I don't really believe in sin. I think that was something Jesus was trying to get us all to see. I don't think he was a "god" either. Well, no more than you or I. I think we are all children of "God" and therefore "God" or "gods." I reject the idea of eternal progression. That sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. If eternity is circular, at what point on it can you say you've progressed? Meh.

I like your question, but given my currently accepted premises, it's impossible for me to really answer.

Oh, and yes, I am still an active member of the LDS church (I know, right???)

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

[jay santos]

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

I love that line and that concept. I had to google because I couldn't remember the source. Ugh. And just when I've been ripping on Ayn Rand. Oh well, I have to admit I do like a lot of her ideas.

[taekwondave]

Contradictions do not exist. Whenever you think that you are facing a contradiction, check your premises. You will find that one of them is wrong.

Good advice. Little help?

[taekwondave]

weak

What do you want from me?

Okay. Given a different set of premises, since you asked....

Yes. He sinned.

[taekwondave]

It's the only option considering the information you've given me.

Given the premise that suicide is a sin, if you accept that Jesus had the power to deliver himself from death but chose not to and therefore committed suicide, then yes, he sinned. How else can a person take that?

The trick of the question is, of course, the pre-existing premise/assumption that Jesus COULDN'T sin and still enact the atonement. Well, like someone just a moment ago said, maybe we should check our premises...?

[wuapinmon]

It's the only option considering the information you've given me.

Given the premise that suicide is a sin, if you accept that Jesus had the power to deliver himself from death but chose not to and therefore committed suicide, then yes, he sinned. How else can a person take that?

The trick of the question is, of course, the pre-existing premise/assumption that Jesus COULDN'T sin and still enact the atonement. Well, like someone just a moment ago said, maybe we should check our premises...?

Keep going; you're not seeing all of it.

[taekwondave]

Keep going; you're not seeing all of it.

What is there a hidden boner in there like in "The Little Mermaid" or something? I keep looking but now my head is starting to hurt. Can you just tell me?

Which reminds me...

[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InFLnzeQjWw"]YouTube - Little Mermaid Erection[/nomedia]

[wuapinmon]

What is there a hidden boner in there like in "The Little Mermaid" or something? I keep looking but now my head is starting to hurt. Can you just tell me?

Which reminds me...

YouTube - Little Mermaid Erection

I don't want to rob you. Dwell on it for a few weeks.

[taekwondave]

I don't want to rob you. Dwell on it for a few weeks.

dammit!

[BlueHair]

Why would allowing yourself to be killed be considered suicide? That doesn't make any sense to me. Does it make me a thief if I allow someone to steal from me?

[taekwondave]

Why would allowing yourself to be killed be considered suicide? That doesn't make any sense to me. Does it make me a thief if I allow someone to steal from me?

Wait, you had me until that last part. I see your point that allowing someone to kill you doesn't necessarily make you a suicide, but I don't think this parallel works. But yeah, suicide means you kill yourself, not that you let someone kill you. I rescind my former statement. It wasn't well thought out.

Ahem. No, he wasn't a suicide. Will you tell me NOW, wua?

[BlueHair]

Wait, you had me until that last part. I see your point that allowing someone to kill you doesn't necessarily make you a suicide, but I don't think this parallel works. But yeah, suicide means you kill yourself, not that you let someone kill you. I rescind my former statement. It wasn't well thought out.

Ahem. No, he wasn't a suicide. Will you tell me NOW, wua?

The point I was trying to make is that killing is taking a life. Stealing is taking property. Allowing someone to take my life doesn't make me a killer, nor does allowing someone to steal from me make me a thief. I'm guessing the reason people think suicide is a sin is because they're taking a life. Not perfect, but I think it works.