Are Mormons Christian Part 2

[FMCoug]

Just curious, was you this upset when I was kidded out of school for having weed in my off campus apartment? I never tested positive, but all three of my roommates and I were expelled.

I didn't know you then so but if I had, yes that would have pissed me off too. You can choose to believe that or not.

[Tex]

Baseball

It was actually a rhetorical question.

[FMCoug]

I believe that this was a lesson in overdoing the punishment for certain sins as well as forgiveness. What makes me laugh is that if you believe that Jesus was Jehova of the Old Testament, then you also believe that he is the one that instituted that punishment in the first place. Or did Moses just misunderstand?

Moses understood just fine. But the Law of Moses was always intended to be temporary. And was fulfilled by the Atonement. So I'm not sure how this applies to sins today.

Jesus also sent the lepers to the priest to show they were clean. What role does priesthood authority play in becoming clean from sin? And while Christ could look on the heart and know if it had changed, the rest of us aren't quite as good at that.

I think private counsel with priesthood leaders is a very important part of repentance. I have never said differently. I don't think that manufactured "punishments" are warranted in most cases though.

I don't believe in "I'm sorry" and it is simply done with. I think it takes more than that. I tell my kids all the time, "you just punched your brother in the mouth. Do you really think just saying you are sorry now makes that go away? He is still hurting from what you did and you want your end in the deal finished already?"

Nor do I. Your kid analagy is interesting. Natural consequences are what we have found to be just about the only effective punishment. So if I had a son that punched his sister, a consequence might be having to do her chores for her since she is in too much pain to do them, etc. I wouldn't ever consider coming up with some unrelated consequence just to punish him.

[Rickomatic]

It was actually a rhetorical question.

I wasn't in a rhetorical situation. It was real and it took along time to get over (if I ever really did).

[Jacob]

Perhaps Santos is contagious because I just can't leave this alone.

But someone please explain this.

What kind of effed up logic makes you think you can shout from the rooftops that "we are too Christians" and spend millions on a PR campaign to that effect, yet completely destroy a young man's life, in the national spotlight, for the sake of "protecting the good name" of said organization.

There is NOTHING remotely Christlike about any of this.

Eddie's Ghandi quote had it right.

Please clear this up for me. Who is the young man whose life has been destroyed?

I know people who got kicked out of BYU for the very reason Davies did and their lives were not destroyed as a result. When Davies decides to return to play for BYU in January 2012, will you still consider his life destroyed?

[FMCoug]

Please clear this up for me. Who is the young man whose life has been destroyed?

I know people who got kicked out of BYU for the very reason Davies did and their lives were not destroyed as a result. When Davies decides to return to play for BYU in January 2012, will you still consider his life destroyed?

If you think the consequences are the same for Brandon Davies and a no-name sutdent you are hopelessly naive. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you google Brandon Davies 10 years from now, what will come up? Is that true of your friend?

[Tex]

I wasn't in a rhetorical situation. It was real and it took along time to get over (if I ever really did).

It wasn't directed at you or your situation specifically.

I was suggesting that the level that some people get worked up over the HC is directly related to its impact on the sporting program. In short: selective outrage.

Having to spell that out sort of ruins the brevity, but I guess it wasn't clear, so apologies.

[Tex]

Please clear this up for me. Who is the young man whose life has been destroyed?

I know people who got kicked out of BYU for the very reason Davies did and their lives were not destroyed as a result. When Davies decides to return to play for BYU in January 2012, will you still consider his life destroyed?

I'm sure it's already been posted but ...

Former BYU football star Reno Mahe feels for Cougar basketball player Brandon Davies, who was suspended from the team Tuesday for a school honor code violation.

Mahe suffered the same hard lessons in 1998 after an honor code violation got him booted from the football program after his freshman season.

"I've always shared this with people, that it was probably one of the best things that had happened to me," he said. "I appreciate what BYU did to me. I appreciate the honor code and what it stands for. I appreciate that they enforce it. You get a lot of schools that say they have codes, but I don't think anyone enforces it like BYU does."

[Jacob]

If you think the consequences are the same for Brandon Davies and a no-name sutdent you are hopelessly naive. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you google Brandon Davies 10 years from now, what will come up? Is that true of your friend?

I didn't say anything about a no-name student. I'm referring to a student in a situation that almost exactly mirrors Davies'.

As for your google search claim...I don't know why you have such a low opinion of Davies. I'm confident he'll yet have much success in the next 10 years.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I agree. Makes you wonder if the same stuff that gets you suspended at BYU should also keep you from participating in elder's (or YM/YW) basketball, or from attending the ward christmas party, or even attending the church.

I know this is taking it well beyond the next step - but in essense I am agreeing with you. These are all things that are paid for (at least in part) by tithing funds. So are the sinners asked to not participate?

Sometimes I think the honor code is simply used as one factor to reduce the number of students at the Y. Not necessarily because they plan to kick them out. But because they have so many they have to turn away, that this is one way to potentially get fewer to apply in the first place. If students knew that the honor code meant an interview with your bishop once a year that ended with "try to do better", it wouldn't help with that much.

I think there is more truth to this than some would want to admit.

[FMCoug]

I didn't say anything about a no-name student. I'm referring to a student in a situation that almost exactly mirrors Davies'.

I don't know that there has ever been one like this so I have a hard time believing that. Even Ronnie Jenkins was nowhere near this big a deal.

[Jacob]

I think there is more truth to this than some would want to admit.

Of course there is. But why wouldn't one want to admit it? BYU advertises it from the rooftops. At least the part about not wanting students to apply who don't think they can handle the honor code.

[Jacob]

I don't know that there has ever been one like this so I have a hard time believing that. Even Ronnie Jenkins was nowhere near this big a deal.

Reno Mahe
Mekeli Wesley
Harvey Unga
and on and on

And thanks a lot! Now I just contributed to these guys showing up in a google search 10 years later. Even so, none of their lives were destroyed. And I still think this shows you have a low opinion of Mr Davies.

[FMCoug]

Reno Mahe
Mekeli Wesley
Harvey Unga
and on and on

And thanks a lot! Now I just contributed to these guys showing up in a google search 10 years later. Even so, none of their lives were destroyed. And I still think this shows you have a low opinion of Mr Davies.

None of those are nearly as high profile as this. The equivalent would be if Harvey had been kicked off the team, in late November, with BYU BCS bowl bound.

[Surfah]

If you think the consequences are the same for Brandon Davies and a no-name sutdent you are hopelessly naive. As has been mentioned elsewhere, if you google Brandon Davies 10 years from now, what will come up? Is that true of your friend?

Consequences are never fair though. Ever. Take the honor code out of the equation. Davies and his girlfriend make the same mistake. She gets pregnant. Her body is ravaged by a new life growing inside her. Brandon can continue going to school. He can keep playing basketball. His girlfriend has to put her life on hold. If she was in school she has to now drop out. If she was an athlete, her career is likely over. She has to live with the stigma of being an unwed mother as her belly continues to grow. She'll wear the consequence of the same mistake Brandon made for 9 months and thereafter. Not really fair is it?

The point of making these comparisons to Joe Engineering student are stupid. Should he make Davies' mistake it's not going to be publicized. So what? Joe Engineering student also doesn't get to dance on national TV. He doesn't get to be talked about in national publications. His project isn't going to make ESPN highlights. He doesn't have 22,000 students cheering for him in the testing center. The fact of the matter is we make these student athletes into celebrities for better or worse. So consequences are never going to be the same. This isn't just unique to BYU. This happens everywhere. The only difference is Davies' is getting dismissed for something that he wouldn't pretty much anywhere else.