Are Mormons Christian Part 2

[FMCoug]

Perhaps Santos is contagious because I just can't leave this alone.

But someone please explain this.

What kind of effed up logic makes you think you can shout from the rooftops that "we are too Christians" and spend millions on a PR campaign to that effect, yet completely destroy a young man's life, in the national spotlight, for the sake of "protecting the good name" of said organization.

There is NOTHING remotely Christlike about any of this.

Eddie's Ghandi quote had it right.

[Donuthole]

Honestly, Part 1 was a pretty crappy thread. Nothing in that thread, other than the fact that it was a crappy thread and you wanted a new "headline" on the board, merits the need for a Part 2 thread. For someone who claims to hate CB, you sure employ a lot of CB posting tactics.

[FMCoug]

Honestly, Part 1 was a pretty crappy thread.

You're right. In true CUF fashion, it quickly diverged from the topic at hand. Which is why I started a new thread. And based on your response, that is likely what is going to happen to this one as well.

[Eddie]

Just curious -

In your view, what would Jesus do?

Or I suppose I should ask - what is the logical and appropriate response of a Christian organization to sin? How do you help the sinner? What qualifies as destroying someone's life and where does helping someone make changes that need to be made cross over that line to become destructive?



Please understand - I'm not speaking from the perspective of Brandon Davies. Take him out of the equation. I'm talking in generalities. In a general sense - how does all of this stuff fit together?

Once you figure out the generalities, then we can see how it might apply to a specific situation/person.

[FMCoug]

Just curious -
In your view, what would Jesus do?

"He who is without sin cast the first stone"
"Go and sin no more"

Trying to remember the examples of punishment from His words but drawing a blank.

Or I suppose I should ask - what is the logical and appropriate response of a Christian organization to sin? How do you help the sinner? What qualifies as destroying someone's life and where does helping someone make changes that need to be made cross over that line to become destructive?

For a penitent sinner, the ONLY thing to do in my opinion is to work with them, in private, with love, long suffering, etc.

[statman]

...What qualifies as destroying someone's life and where does helping someone make changes that need to be made cross over that line to become destructive?

Repentence requires the humility of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The idea of hiding a sin until after graduation, or the end of the season, or until I can avoid some other unfortunate outcome, displays neither humility nor contrition.

It sucks, but that's how it's always going to be at BYU. And since tithing funds are paying the bulk of the actual cost of education, I really don't have a problem with it. No more than I do with someone who works for the Church knowing he'd going to be fired if he ever stops paying his tithing or for some other reason loses his temple recommend. It's what you signed up for...

[FMCoug]

Repentence requires the humility of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The idea of hiding a sin until after graduation, or the end of the season, or until I can avoid some other unfortunate outcome, displays neither humility nor contrition.

Do you honestly think that not making sin public is "hiding it"? If a student is working with his priesthood leader, in the spirit above, why do there have to be public consequences that have nothing to do with the sin?

[Rickomatic]

Did the school make him wear a scarlet A?
Did BYU demonize him in anyway?
I am sure they tried to make this as small and as easy as possible for Davies, but the BUSINESS of College Basketball wouldn't let a high profile story like this go without the storm/ The media and fans like us are who are 'damaging' Davies. I am sure he just wants to start the process that will get himself past this. Whatever his choice is in life, I am sure he wants to do it without our input.

[Jarid in Cedar]

Repentence requires the humility of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The idea of hiding a sin until after graduation, or the end of the season, or until I can avoid some other unfortunate outcome, displays neither humility nor contrition.

It sucks, but that's how it's always going to be at BYU. And since tithing funds are paying the bulk of the actual cost of education, I really don't have a problem with it. No more than I do with someone who works for the Church knowing he'd going to be fired if he ever stops paying his tithing or for some other reason loses his temple recommend. It's what you signed up for...

I think this is a huge Non Sequitur that is getting thrown around. How much of that tithing comes from people who have committed, are currently committing, or will commit major sins in the future? I wonder how they feel about their own commitment to the church. They are still paying in because in their POV it helps better them as a person. They pay even though they have violated the "laws of the church". Why should the tithing funds given to BYU be only availiable to those who are spotless in the sight of God?

[FMCoug]

Did the school make him wear a scarlet A?
Did BYU demonize him in anyway?

Of course they did. By making the issue public. There is no reason something like this needs to go beyond Brandon and his priesthood leaders. Playing basketball has nothing to do with sex. Getting kicked off the team is not a naturacl consequence of what he did. It is a consequence manufactured by BYU as a punishment.

And I would go so far as to say that at least where high profile athletes are concerned that does in fact amount to a scarlet A. The HCO has a file cabinet full of them. They knew damn well this would blow up as a huge public story like this. To say they didn't is ridiculous.

Hell, they even ANNOUNCED that he was leaving the team due to an HC violation.

[FMCoug]

I think this is a huge Non Sequitur that is getting thrown around. How much of that tithing comes from people who have committed, are currently committed, or will commit major sins in the future? I wonder how they feel about their own commitment to the church. They are still paying in because in their POV it helps better them as a person. They pay even though they have violated the "laws of the church". Why should the tithing funds given to BYU be only availiable to those who are spotless in the sight of God?

The root of this is that Mormon culture is out of sync with Mormon doctrine. This culture abhors sin and sinners and everyone likes to pretend they are perfect. The entire concept of "we are all sinners" is not really there.

I have said this before enough times that it shoudl be in my sig. I am LDS in spite of Mormons, not because of them.

[Rickomatic]

Of course they did. By making the issue public. There is no reason something like this needs to go beyond Brandon and his priesthood leaders. Playing basketball has nothing to do with sex. Getting kicked off the team is not a naturacl consequence of what he did. It is a consequence manufactured by BYU as a punishment.

And I would go so far as to say that at least where high profile athletes are concerned that does in fact amount to a scarlet A. The HCO has a file cabinet full of them. They knew damn well this would blow up as a huge public story like this. To say they didn't is ridiculous.

Hell, they even ANNOUNCED that he was leaving the team due to an HC violation.

Just curious, was you this upset when I was kidded out of school for having weed in my off campus apartment? I never tested positive, but all three of my roommates and I were expelled.

[Tex]

Just curious, was you this upset when I was kidded out of school for having weed in my off campus apartment? I never tested positive, but all three of my roommates and I were expelled.

Were you on the basketball team?

[Eddie]

"He who is without sin cast the first stone"
"Go and sin no more"

Trying to remember the examples of punishment from His words but drawing a blank.

For a penitent sinner, the ONLY thing to do in my opinion is to work with them, in private, with love, long suffering, etc.

I believe that this was a lesson in overdoing the punishment for certain sins as well as forgiveness. What makes me laugh is that if you believe that Jesus was Jehova of the Old Testament, then you also believe that he is the one that instituted that punishment in the first place. Or did Moses just misunderstand?

Jesus also sent the lepers to the priest to show they were clean. What role does priesthood authority play in becoming clean from sin? And while Christ could look on the heart and know if it had changed, the rest of us aren't quite as good at that.

I don't believe in "I'm sorry" and it is simply done with. I think it takes more than that. I tell my kids all the time, "you just punched your brother in the mouth. Do you really think just saying you are sorry now makes that go away? He is still hurting from what you did and you want your end in the deal finished already?"

Repentence requires the humility of a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The idea of hiding a sin until after graduation, or the end of the season, or until I can avoid some other unfortunate outcome, displays neither humility nor contrition.

It sucks, but that's how it's always going to be at BYU. And since tithing funds are paying the bulk of the actual cost of education, I really don't have a problem with it. No more than I do with someone who works for the Church knowing he'd going to be fired if he ever stops paying his tithing or for some other reason loses his temple recommend. It's what you signed up for...

Do you honestly think that not making sin public is "hiding it"? If a student is working with his priesthood leader, in the spirit above, why do there have to be public consequences that have nothing to do with the sin?

I agree. You don't have to shout it from the housetops to not hide it. Some things don't need to be told to everyone. Just those that need to know.

I think this is a huge Non Sequitur that is getting thrown around. How much of that tithing comes from people who have committed, are currently committed, or will commit major sins in the future? I wonder how they feel about their own commitment to the church. They are still paying in because in their POV it helps better them as a person. They pay even though they have violated the "laws of the church". Why should the tithing funds given to BYU be only availiable to those who are spotless in the sight of God?

I agree. Makes you wonder if the same stuff that gets you suspended at BYU should also keep you from participating in elder's (or YM/YW) basketball, or from attending the ward christmas party, or even attending the church.

I know this is taking it well beyond the next step - but in essense I am agreeing with you. These are all things that are paid for (at least in part) by tithing funds. So are the sinners asked to not participate?

Sometimes I think the honor code is simply used as one factor to reduce the number of students at the Y. Not necessarily because they plan to kick them out. But because they have so many they have to turn away, that this is one way to potentially get fewer to apply in the first place. If students knew that the honor code meant an interview with your bishop once a year that ended with "try to do better", it wouldn't help with that much.

[Rickomatic]

Baseball