If you were in charge, how would YOU run a faith based university?

[Portland Ute]

While at Ricks we knew of a bishop where anything goes. A lot of my buddies went to his summer ward and got everything cleared up. They could find a bishop like that and put all the athletes in that ward.

Then, that would be on the Bishop's head not BYU's.

These same things happen when people are looking to go on missions, get married, go to the temple, etc.

This is nothing new and is a personal and ecclesiastical issue and not an academic/athletic issue.

People are always working the system, no matter what the system is or how inspired it claims to be.

Let Bishops act in their God-given callling as Judges over Israel and tell the HC to get the hell out of people's personal issues and worry about academic and legal integrity.

[I.J. Reilly]

If I were a student at BYU, I'd be organizing a protest in front of the HCO today. It's time for the student's to take matters into their own hands and shoot down the ecclesiastical authority that has been usurped by the HCO administrators.

This is like citizens gathering to protest in Libya or China.

I'm not sure the students are ready for the sacrifice yet.

[Portland Ute]

This is like citizens gathering to protest in Libya or China.

I'm not sure the students are ready for the sacrifice yet.

Theoretically, what would happen if all BYU students withdrew from class, grow beards and wear single strap backpacks across their chests?

BYU would have to react, no?

They'd stand to lose tons of money. It would be a huge P.R. nightmare if it went on to long. If we know anything, it's that BYU and the church *try* to avoid public signs of upheaval.

[Paperback Writer]

Let Bishops act in their God-given callling as Judges over Israel and tell the HC to get the hell out of people's personal issues and worry about academic and legal integrity.

Totally agree. Remove the threat of suspension for consensual sex. I wish BYU would get rid of the continuing ecclesiastical endorsement as well.

[Sullyute]

Theoretically, what would happen if all BYU students withdrew from class, grow beards and wear single strap backpacks across their chests?

BYU would have to react, no?

They'd stand to lose tons of money. It would be a huge P.R. nightmare if it went on to long. If we know anything, it's that BYU and the church *try* to avoid public signs of upheaval.

Please tell me that this was in jest and that the BYU does not tell you how to wear your backpack or laptop bag?

[Paperback Writer]

Theoretically, what would happen if all BYU students withdrew from class, grow beards and wear single strap backpacks across their chests?

BYU would have to react, no?

They'd stand to lose tons of money. It would be a huge P.R. nightmare if it went on to long. If we know anything, it's that BYU and the church *try* to avoid public signs of upheaval.

I'm against any female co-eds growing beards

In my view, it is already costing BYU a lot of money. I could be wrong, but there are a lot of alumni that are just not happy with BYU administration. And I think that affects donations. I might be off, but alumni donations are no where close to wear they should be and there are probably multiple reasons for it. But having a pissed of alumni base doesn't help matters.

[Moliere]

This is like citizens gathering to protest in Libya or China.

I'm not sure the students are ready for the sacrifice yet.

Yeah, that and the fact that you could probably get 25 people to the protest. At what point do we as a church realize that God does not saction every action taken by church leadership? I wonder if OD2 would have been issued much sooner than 1978 if people inside the church would have taken a firmer stance during the civil rights movement.

[Portland Ute]

I wish BYU would get rid of the continuing ecclesiastical endorsement as well.

I don't see that happening.

I belive that it's the ecclesiastical endorsement and the direct association with the LDS church that ensure BYU's unique atmosphere.

To maintain what it is that many people like about BYU, I think you have to have some ecclesiastical supervision over what goes on at BYU. BUT, it needs to be handled privately.

Suppose there was no HC and Davies and his bishop met. They'd be working together right now while Davies continues with the rest of the aspects of his life. Pretty much what all the rest of us would do if we had an issue with some aspect of church laws. If there were recurring issues, any bishop with a conscience and a belief in his spiritual responsibilities would pull the endorsement. BUT, it could be done with a heads up: "I am letting you know that I will not be giving you an endorsement for next school year. I would advise you to make preparations so that your schooling/athletic career is not delayed or damaged."

The press release from BYU would come at the end of the season and would say:" So and so is transferring from BYU for personal reasons." Period. Done.

Nobody is embarrassed. Nobody. And careers and schooling are not sacrificed.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I think the commission of certain crimes should get people kicked out of school (maybe they should have one warning sometimes).

As for moral type issues, it should be left up to the bishop just like it is right now, but under no circumstances should someone be kicked out mid-semester. Additionally, I don't think they should really be kicked out but they should just be told that an EE will not be signed and that they need to transfer so no permanent mark is placed on their record.

I don't have a problem at all with the school having an honor code and I don't even really oppose the honor code in its current form with the exception of the dress and grooming standards bullshit. But I have a huge problem with the implementation of it in regard to both how they gather information on students and how they execute punishment. I simply think that something like having sex should not destroy someone's academic and professional future. Take away the privilege of attending BYU -- fine, but there needs to be a way where people can be eased out of BYU without suffering permanent academic and professional repercussions.

[I.J. Reilly]

Yeah, that and the fact that you could probably get 25 people to the protest. At what point do we as a church realize that God does not saction every action taken by church leadership? I wonder if OD2 would have been issued much sooner than 1978 if people inside the church would have taken a firmer stance during the civil rights movement.

I think more than 25 would show up if there wasn't the implicit threat that their spiritual well-being was in the balance by doing so.

Any change to come would only be delayed by public outrage with media attention. The Church is very sensitive to making changes that might be perceived to be in response to "the world" (see 1978 Official Declaration). The only exception to this is real and present existential threat (see Manifesto), to which level the Honor Code issues are not even comparable.

[byu71]

What kind of rules and punishment does Baylor, ND, Boston College, etc. have.

I read the rules at Bob Jones University. They are similar, but not quite as tough on punishment.

[falafel]

Yeah, aren't they pretty much the same in that they claim each incident is handled on a "case by case" basis. I've never heard that they claim uniformity.

I would prefer there be no honor code office (or one that is greatly reduced) and everything simply handled through ecclesiastical endorsements.

I do worry though that it would not look very Christian-like laying off all those HCO employees and greatly affecting their lives, through no fault of their own.

I'm sure they would strive for uniformity in identical situations. I know that perfectly identical situations are probably never going to come up, but when the facts are close enough you have to strive for uniform outcomes just based on fundamental fairness.

Example: Two sophomore non-RM male students each have sex with female students. As far as anyone is aware, it is the first time for each guy. Each is repentant. One has a loving bishop who understands that this is a 19 year old kid 1,000s of miles away from home and provides him loving counsel, but doesn't strip his EE right away. He instructs him that this might not be the case if he continues to engage in pre-marital sex.

The other kid has a hardliner Utah County born and raised bishop who is running for Provo City Council. This bishop exhorts the young man to repent and promises to help him on the road back, but informs him that his EE will be withdrawn while he works through his problems. If he demonstrates that he can keep himself clean for 1 year, the bishop will reinstate his EE and he can re-enroll in school. The Bishop reasons that the young man knew the requirements of the Honor Code and agreed to abide by it.

One kids gets to stay in school, continue his education, continue on his path to graduate school, his career, etc. The other kid gets booted, it goes on his academic record (from what I understand), perhaps he is disillusioned and depressed, takes a job in the time he's out of school, never really gets back into his studies and his life path is drastically altered.

I can see how BYU would have a problem with that outcome. I have a problem with that outcome. From BYU's standpoint, I think the Honor Code office is the only real solution. I would hope that the HC office would adopt the attitude and counsel taken by the first bishop in this example and not the second (right now, I'd say the HC is much closer to the 2nd bishop), but that's a separate issue.

[falafel]

Please tell me that this was in jest and that the BYU does not tell you how to wear your backpack or laptop bag?

Where have you been? That was the most talked about story of 2001.

[SeattleUte]

"faith based university" is an oxymoron.

[falafel]

"faith based university" is an oxymoron.

Don't tell Notre Dame.